MUSKY 360 PODCAST Episode 242: Live Imaging The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly
Podcast Transcript
Steven:
Alright folks, welcome to the Musky 360 podcast, Jaybird 360. He can hate the Eagles. What's going on, man? Goodness gracious, I can take him on singularities like Don Henley's got some great songs. Love Joe Walsh, but the Eagles together. I feel like the dude from Big Lebowski makes me want to just peel my freaking eyeballs out. Anyway, you were out and about today. I got a text from you. And what? What's, what's, what's going on up north? Jay, you were smacking them on on the Titan today. I believe. Correct. Or is Titan junior? What would? What happened?
Jay:
So. Through water. Yeah, well, typical weekend off. Massive cold front crashes through yesterday and the temperatures drop in the afternoon and today. Guess what Steve? High bright skies, little northwest wind and highs in the 60s.
Steven:
Hmm. So there you go, ******.
Jay:
Can I my #1 cold front bait Titan junior? You know, downsize a little bit and then you give me the erratic thing and you you work the weed edges and. So, you got a big walleye, got some Pike and small mouths and yeah.
Steven:
GB J.
Jay:
Big, big Lola. Yeah. No muskys though.
Steven:
And then I don't know, I PB got my new PBX fricking come on now. Come on, be honest with.
Jay:
What are you? Going to do.
Steven:
No, that's cool, man. I I was happy.
Jay:
That it is deadly, man. It really is. It is. It is so good. It catches everything. And it is so good in weeds. It is so it's it's weedless characteristics to it. It really does.
Steven:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's not anything. I have that. I I had a combo with the dude on the boat this week. Where? And I I hope people appreciate my. Not beating the crap out of stuff I made. You know what I'm saying? Like every week. Like you'll get old. But you know, try to lay off of them after we kind of talk about how to use them and everything. But you know, a lot of dudes catching big fish on Titans, bunch of cracking catches coming up here. Something about that I'm going to get into a minute. Here in a minute, as far as this tube kind of thing, we're going to talk about kind of a weird subject here before we get to Q&A because this week we've been overloaded with Q. OK. So we'll hit that in a moment. But you know, Jay, what I'm hearing up north, you know, I'm listening to the, the, the fricking Josh Krieger's musky report. You listen to Danny Herbeck and Jamie, but still, they're doing reports on the app right now. If you don't know that covering that, there is a Northwoods Musky report, it comes out. I believe every Thursday, right. I think it's pretty much Thursday, which guys Thursday, which gives you a heads up if you're heading to the North Woods. Danny Herbeck, Jamie pastilla. They're doing a Musky report for Canada. That gives you the heads up before you get to the lodge, right? So you can stop at the Musky Shop or whatever. Whatever's hitting, they're going to tell you what the baits that are, whether the hot baits, Jay.
Steven:
95 calls an hour at the most give you up. Hey, what's hot? What's cooking, baby? What's cooking?
Jay:
Yeah, yeah.
Steven:
You know, so that's going on so. I'm sorry I'm going to mood, but no, no. But those reports will kind of give you the. Heads. Up. But you know what? What's happening there? But but. Where I was going with this I have. No. Clue because it is. They they say they make this in 36 oz. Cans, Jay. But but I think where I was going would be, you know when you got cold fronts, you get difficult conditions like Kregers lining it up for what's happening. Obviously he's thinking about the cold fronts coming to the Canadian. Think what can we do in tough conditions? That's always the question, right, Jay? No one needs help. No one needs help with throw a top Raider out. Turn the handle. I hope not. Right. We could talk about what not to do with regarding hook sets or something of this nature. But you know, how do we dial in?
Jay:
Here it is.
Steven:
Go out when things aren't perfect, and that's what I love like with the Titan Junior. Like you're saying, man smacking that, that your PB wall like you've cut a bunch of. Actually, you caught, one of the biggest smallies I've seen in a long time. We did that in a video one time. We caught a mondo Smalley on that guy, so.
Jay:
Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. With. Yeah, that with that trip with Josh, we're on. Yeah. Yeah. When you go river.
Steven:
Wait, create here man. Somewhere you know here very shortly we're going to use a Titan Junior to Shim the door open at the Smitty's house so we don't get locked in, though.
Speaker
Yeah.
Steven:
Right, we got this stuff and think about it. Dude, TItan. You want the door shut at their house? No. Uh, that exit is unlockable from the inside.
Jay:
Preventive measures. I like that. It's thinking hard. Like, I'll mess you up. Yeah, that's what a seal would do. The first thing you do is just like, OK, where are my?
Steven:
Exits, right? Right. Because I'm right. When you said. See you. I thought about.
Jay:
Stepping into a potential nightmare.
Steven:
That kind of feel like not not a Navy SEAL, just to kind of seal, which is even funnier. OK, but yeah, watch your six with the Smitty. You know what I'm saying? I'm not gonna say I'm not saying they're back stabbers, but they might stab you in the back to take you down like a bobcat on a deer. I'm excited. I'm headed up to your your way here very shortly. I know. I've got a afternoon. Me and Jay are going to go hang out with the Smittys Jay. I've got to tell you, kind of what the plan is there, like an expose, if you will. What's going on there with the Smitty's? We'll dive into it and we'll look at. So it'll be cool. Very, very, very excited.
Jay:
Sure.
Steven:
Very excited. You 4 varies for then.
Jay:
OK, what is it?
Steven:
Were were you making fire with a bow? Drill. What was that?
Jay:
There's fires in the backyard. Neighbor Steve is in party mode, right?
Steven:
Now, if that's right, if yes, where your hands, you need lotion.
Jay:
Number one, all day, man.
Steven:
Dang. Dang. They don't have anything finger dams in the office for touching all those. Envelopes all week. The balls really taken out of my hands. They're very dry. Back there with Rudess, that's why. Tom, so sick the amount of paperwork.
Jay:
Hey, neighbor. Steve, say hi to Steve. You can.
Steven:
Neighbor neighbor tell neighbor Steve to come here. Is he? Is he lit like a Roman candle?
Jay:
I I think there's some barbecuing going.
Steven:
On here, Robin, we're going live to neighbor Steve.
Robin:
We're next.
Steven:
Hey, Robin. Hey, Robin.
Jay:
There, there's wild, there's wild animals back here. Yeah, here comes like a. Here she comes. You saw me? Yep. OK. Hey, baby. Hey, baby.
Steven:
Yes.
Robin:
Today, we're going to have plenty of extra.
Jay:
Brightworks or awesome. Thank you very much.
Steven:
I I need you in either I need you to go. Yeah. I need you to get. To neighbor Steve.
Jay:
Ohk. OK, I'm walking over now. OK, let me let me. Here we are.
Steven:
Going to speaker. J.
Jay:
Whoops, I hit the. Wrong. OK. So, are you curious?
Yeah. How you doing?
Steven:
Buddy neighbors. Steve, how are you? Oh, my goodness, neighbor. I couldn't be better. We just watched the Saint Germain parade. Uh-huh. And the ultimate right there was David Duke there this year. I think he was neighbor state. I had. I had neighbor Steve. I had to get you on. You are absolutely podcast famous and you found that out this week didn't.
Herbeck:
You it was nothing to do with. I'm on.
Steven:
Me. No, I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm Jay. I'm on the boat. And this guy loves the podcast. Great.
Speaker
So that's.
Steven:
People, wonderful people. And they're like, we think we know somebody that knows somebody that lives next to the guy at the musky shop, right? Like like OK, Rude and Tom Rudis from the Musky shop lives in a cave, right?
Jay:
Right, that's that's what woman.
Steven:
You know, Freddie lives like 4 hours South in Tomahawk because they he knows there's a deli there. And I was like, it's gotta be Jay. And anyway, we we had somebody on the boat. He knows a relative of neighbor Steve, so neighbor Steve is podcast famous. He is. He is the freaking Saint Germain party animal neighbor Steve, thank me. And let me put it this way. Me and neighbor Steve have burned her down in that garage.
Jay:
Yes. Yeah, curves on the Eagle River chain on his massive pontoon yesterday party bar. She had the whole family out there first time out there. Did the four crews had a great time.
Steven:
Listen. Listen, the last time me neighbor Steve and Jay were in that garage, Jay, Chris and the toilet bowl, OK, We, we we don't play that.
Herbeck:
- Talk to you later. Good talk. Bye, Lika.
Steven:
Any.
Jay:
OK, I'm back on on on the phones here. Like us following me. I think she wants to think she wants a treat. OK, she's coming in. Come on.
Steven:
I'm sorry. You've heard The Beatles a day in a life. This is Jessie, a day in the life of neighbor Steves chilling and grilling.
Jay:
He's grilling back there, wants some milk bone. So, wait one second here, Steve. Lots of things to do.
Steven:
Here the things to do. Here you go. The first dog. Space.
Jay:
Yeah, she's my baby.
Steven:
Anyway, you'll hear more of this here shortly. Neighbor fricking Steve.
Speaker 1
Jay yeah.
Steven:
You know it. It's it's I I think we're going to end up fish with neighbor Steve doing. A little filming here shortly we should. Ohh, we're going to it's going to happen and you know it'll be. It'll be epic. And neighbor Steve smacked a big one. I think we mentioned it whenever we're of our favorite people neighbor Steve just.
Jay:
Got a really big fish about a week ago. Good for him. He was very happy. Very happy.
Steven:
He's a big podcaster, but how funny. Jay, you go in the backyard, you can't avoid it. It's either one side of it, there's that Dojo. To the left of you and the neighbor Steve to the right. What's up with? With well, anyway, we'll talk about that later. We might do it. We might do a go fund me for that, Jay.
Speaker
Yeah.
Jay:
We will. We will probably need to.
Steven:
I'm thinking guys, if you remember Stimpy, last year right here, if you're if you enjoy the.
Jay:
Text empty? Who could forget?
Steven:
Dick Stemke bit. We might have a little special project. Coming up anyway. So, I'm sorry, we are way off base and we are away. It's special. So anyway.
Jay:
Ohh it's special.
Steven:
Going back to reality, OK, you got zigzagging muskys on that from Joe Bucher. He's walking the dog, right? We got the Northwoods report. We got the Cantor report, Jay said. It's a cold front. We're seeing a lot of different things here. And I did this little write up if you will. I think it's about 1000 words. Midsummer russkies. Deep wet edge, deep weed edge. Basic patterns where? For a podcaster, it's nothing. Now I'm talking about doing cracking tubes, jerk vape presentations on the outside edge. The outside structural edge, something you and I have done for. Four or five years. Right. A lot of people are just now catching on to the power of tubes and the power of cracking and and jerk baits. Basically, an open water suspended water. Something I was going to touch on little hot button, Jake Kellyanne pay, Moy Kellyanne thing. Is. Sharp shooting. Ah, dirty, dirty word. So, song dirty white boy. Get rid of Casey case. I'm like this week. I'm going to request from Melanie out of Oak Tulsa. OK. She wants to hear dirty white boy from lover boy.
Jay:
There.
Steven:
Who did the song? Dirty white boy Jake?
Jay:
- I don't think it was long. Before, but not sure.
Steven:
I'm I'm, I'm Googling. I'm sorry folks Google it.
Speaker
Did.
Steven:
Pretty, I hope there's just. Some gone dirty white. You never know what might come up in the search results. Ohh man foreigner.
Jay:
It's got it.
Steven:
We've got a show. We've got a special request this week. Robin sends love to her husband, neighbors to eat. She requested dirty white boy by foreigner. Going out to the lovers today on the Musky 360 Top 40 countdown. Dirty white boy that is a new bait color name if I've ever seen one. So anyway. What's happening is is a lot of guides, myself included, have been on. The edge of of Panoptix and new electronics, right.
Jay:
So, it was hard.
Steven:
From foreigner dirty white boy to panoptic.
Jay?
Yeah. I just.
Steven:
This is what you tune into every week, folks. Late breaking hard, hitting Musky news. So, focus find my chi if you will, Jay. Yes, yes, so. A lot of guides have been dialed in on pan optics long before most average musky anglers decide to buy it. Right. I've I I wish I got 10% of all the Panoptix units I've sold off my boat. That'd be nice, right? People get on the boat. They see my panoptic set up and they go. Whoa. And you can see them. Yeah. And you can do this. And I've had some interesting conversations this week with some top tier like the some of the best of the best musky guys. Jay, I called you about it. I called Jay pretty much every day and we're talking about it and it's going to go on. I'm going to leave it alone now; cause they'll be future. Conversations about this, but who I talked to. There is a constituency of guides that are driving around and there are solely sharpshooting, right? They're driving around 4 miles an hour, 5 miles an hour, paying optics, pointed the left, paying off pics to the right of me. Here I am, must give a little you right. You have the Steeler wheel Steelers. Bill there, Jake. So, what you can do with paying off, you could literally just come open water basin. You could go out and 100 feet of water, 20 feet of water and target suspended muskys musky you see on your your live imaging what is happening. Now, and I'm finally seeing it and I'm starting to get feedback from some of the guys I know Muskys have caught on. Right. Sing again Muskys have caught on. OK. OK. So, it's like one of these things when Bulldogs came out, they were unbeatable. And then. And I'm not. Bulldogs are great, don't get me wrong, but there was some moment where absolute fire double 10s were absolute fire, right? Once they've seen it once, they ate it once they're conditioned to it. We have a problem, especially on pressure water. So, my thought is how do we beat the live scoopers right? I live scope what I typically do is I'm using it down the side of my boat to see follows. If people that are listening to podcast I've been on my boat. Plenty of you have, you'll realize. Yeah. He's I'm not sitting here scanning or doing this. We're casting and seeing the follows. You know, in the past I've sharp shot. I can sharp shoot. If you read the book next little musky fishing. I actually talk about sharp shooting in a bunch of different ways. To use pan optics there. But what is happening? The guides did it three years ago, four years ago now. The clients and the IT, it's it's starting to spread now it's becoming a thing, right, Jay, it's no longer like an elite small group of people. They're sharp shooting. There are groups of anglers going out. And I know this on. 100% authority going out on the water in Canada. 3 boats wide like a trolling fleet. Sharpshooting. Really. Yes. OK, OK. So. I'm not going to regale you with the details but but, but this is the most authoritative source I know in musky fishing. In Canada, says there are groups of boat head boats headed out. They'll get the same kind of direction going and there will be 60 feet apart and they are sharp shooting as groups. Right. Watched I. It's blew my mind 4 Muskys get caught in the open water basin of Eagle Lake. In wide open water. Right. Now what is happening? A lot of Muskys have not been susceptible to this. They're getting picked up and what people have done is instead of scanning edges now, they're scanning open water while they're not scanning edges so much as they were scanning open water. Well, the edge muskys are freaking out now they're moving to open water. And and things are happening. I mean, I'm being serious. Where? I'm rarely on pressure water, but there's some pressure bodies of water they'll hit where? If a fish kinda hits my live scope beam, it turns off. Mm-hmm. It's becoming a thing. If you don't think it's becoming a thing, I'm sorry. Right. Five years ago, four years. Whatever it. Is. Talking live scope or whatever. You know, not many people had it. I can think of. 50-60 clients that have like text. What unit do about right? Money is no object. They got three. They got four on the boat and people are freaking out. So did a little experiment the other day, took my GoPro submersible, put it near the pan optics transducer. It sounds like you're popping popcorn, Jay. He doesn't look. It's it's it's machine gun fire. So, I was kind of taken aback by that, right? A highly, highly, highly authoritative source on Canadian muskys was having a discussion with me this week. When he pulls onto a spot with live imaging going here, he is seeing Muskys that are suspended go down when they come into the beam. All right. Down. Literally to the bottom. When they come into the range of visibility, he's also seeing walleyes will not eat directly below the boat on popular spots, so there is a lot of come of panoptic pressure that is starting now. I'm always trying to get ahead of the curve at all times, right? So, whether you think there's panoptic pressure or not is a is a moot point. Whether you think that that Muskys can be. Condition to electronics. I don't think it's up for debate. Right? Because guess what your sonars do. They got. Right. They send out a pulse. The pulse is enough of pulse. That it hits the bottom and comes back.
Speaker
Hmm.
Steven:
That is vibration. If you believe that Muskys can recognize the difference between a single A and an AA and and be conditioned, they can surely remember the pulse. Of a negative influence from a boat, right? I personally believe that panoptic is going to become and right now in the next two years it is going to become so pervasive that it's actually going to be a detriment. To success. Ooh, dangerous, nasty, nasty commentary. Why do you think that? OK. I am seeing Muskys come in well below the light penetration that will follow in. And break off right the baits there. The whole bits there, the 2nd that fish kind of hits that wall of where that's pointed. Out. Right. I'm hearing it from other guys. I'm telling you this not because. I don't want to use it, I use it. I'm telling you podcast listeners this from the facts. You're ahead of the pack. You know, Doctor Bob told me. He said. My goodness, it was it was a compliment and annoying all. Once. He said years back, he said Panoptix is a powerful patterning tool. You remember that, Jay, we're talking about patterning, right? Sure. And everybody's like, oh, sharp, sharp, sharp shooting, sharp shooting.
Jay:
Tournaments. Tournaments. You're right, right.
Steven:
Right, right, right, right. And I'm talking, this is a patterning tool I talked about in the book. It's patterning tool. It's like everybody else now saying it's a hell of a patterning tool. Well, here is your chance to hear me out. It now has a positive and a negative connotation. It has been positive, I believe, by the end of this year and the next year there is now a Ying and Yang to pan optics. OK, so how do you know that? What are you doing? Well, the best way. To get a grip grip on this thing. Is coming into a situation and turning it off. And seeing what happens, right? Will Musky come back immediately now? Yes, there is a litany of factors. There's a litany of of exponents could change this right. However. I can pause the transducer. I'll move up. Right where it stops transmitting. You can do it quickly. I'm seeing this invisible wall. If you could imagine this thing is pointed down the side of my boat, so the beam angle is going down the edge of my boat and out muskys at times will not break into that wall. They'll hit it and they'll turn off when I turn it off, they make it all the way in the figure that was my first indication, like, whoa, something's up. Right. Something is up. Fish vertical jigging. Right. They'll flash in and they'll flash out. There is a pulse. There is a fuel to this thing. Right. Those are the first things I was like. Huh. That's weird because like two years ago, Jay, Forget about they swim right into it. Bang, gankem done. Done right, fish after fish after fish. You know, is a is a 31 inch. You're going to turn off on this, no? But is a is a 48 that you know I caught three years ago going to go something doesn't feel right. Right. That is where I started. I started to have these conversations with guys and it's a sticky conversation. Yeah, a little bit like, hey, you're on paying office. Absolutely. How do? You. Run it well, no. How do you run it? I'm not going to show up in your leg. I don't give a ****, right. How do you run? Well, I'm doing this OK. What are you seeing? I'm starting to see fish break off. Ah, me too. And you know, I'm saying it's one of these things like becoming clean conversation, if you.
Jay:
MHM.
Steven:
And and in in in guides. Musky guides are excellent at it. It just running her mouth. If you're if you're not excellent at running your mouth, you're not a good musky guy. You got 10 hours of time to kill in 10 seconds of catching. And you know, once we get past the BS. What's happening? I'm hearing it from guys that are on pressure border. I'm just telling you, don't shoot the messenger. Don't take this up. The flag boys. Guy, come on, don't care. Never have, never will. But the amount of pressure that's coming from, because the production has been so high. So, anglers are starting to see it and they're going out with pan optics and they're not catching fish like the guides were where the guides I know are now scanning way more open water fish that they've not encountered before or fish they're not seeing pressure because it's one of those things, Jay. Nobody had it. Nobody had it. Like it was, it was mythological. When it first came out. Right then it picked up a little bit and then the guides had it. And then the guides that wanted to be guides bought it. And then the high-end clients bought it and it disseminated and the price comes down, the price comes down, the price comes down. I want to say my first panoptic unit was like 5. These right? By the time I think it was like four or five or something crazy like Ohh my goodness, you gotta be nuts. I'm. I'm just telling you this is becoming a thing. So how do we overcome Panoptics pressure, right? Not picking on it, I'm hearing massive report mass report. The amount of people that are sharpshooting in Minnesota, right Jay makes total sense. Pressure, water, big water. How do we? Right drive around 5 miles an hour. You got one point of the left. One point on the right. You see a fish or you see a BLOB of light. You stop. You redial in, you throw it. He's 40 feet out. You drop a bulldog; you drop a crack and you drop it tight and fish on it. That has been what is happening in the guide scene for a minute. You know whether you know it or not. The straight dope is. There are guides that I know that were like I do not want to use panoptic S right? Well. If you don't have it on the boat. And the other guy they went with had it. You look like a chump. And it it it's just like peer pressure. Right? Well, why aren't you doing that? Because you know, Lenny cracks balls catch them for a day. And you're blanking. You see what I'm saying? Like. Joe Schmo's catching the hell out of him and you're. Not.
Jay:
Catching anything? Yeah, I think there is absolutely peer pressure involved with that whole era of technology, sure.
Steven:
You know, because it's been so productive that it's equivalent and a guide brain commentary. It's the equivalent of people. That's like when we were just. Absolutely, and not only annihilating fish on double 10s, right? That guy going, I'm not going to fish double 10s. What? Are you crazy? Right. Are you absolutely daft? You gotta have been losing your mind. And there were guys who like. I'm not fish panoptic and I know guys that have have have succumbed to the pressure. They changed their mind. That's fine. And then they figure how to use it. And they're sharpening so. What I'm telling you there's a heck of a lot more sharp shooting going on than anyone wants to admit, right? It is not cool nor popular. How many times you see sharpshooting in a video, Jay never. I there might be one or two on the tube of you or whatever. But you're not seeing, you know, Larry Thompson drive around on his boat with Pan Optics pointed out for six hours until he sees a fish and he throws at it. Right. But the truth of the matter is this sharp shooting is taking place. Right. You may not see it. You may not believe it, but I am telling you, mark my words, this is what's going on. So, a majority, not a major, I don't say majority they want to put, don't want to choose my words wisely here. There is a contingency of guys that are solely reliant. Client on sharpshooting currently that has disseminated to their clientele. Right from their clientele, it disseminates to their friends and that is where we are at right now and it's starting to become a thing. Now is it good as a bad? I don't care. I'm not here to comment. Comment on that. I'm not here to make commentary as good as that. Not my problem. How do we contend with that different kind of prep?
Speaker
Sure.
Steven:
Right. How do we deal with that? Well, when I'm seeing fish that will turn off out of the beam angle of paying off because they go no good, right? Or I'm seeing fish that I'm jigging and they come in not normal, right? They flash and they flash out, which is not typically what a musky's going to do. I'm going to OK, something's wrong. To the extent now that I am probably 6040 running completely dark out on the boat, Joe. No electronics at all.
Jay:
Do you think those fish that, let's say you got your pan optics to the sky side and we're using it to spot follows which we've done and it's always helpful because fish show up that?
Steven:
Absolutely. They they come. You never see the below the level light penetration.
Jay:
Sure.
Steven:
It's hand in glove with what we've been preaching, yeah.
Speaker
Are those?
Jay:
Now, are those fish in a different mode because they're coming in? They're already switched on. They're following the bait, so it is possibly or potentially not as harmful as just sharpshooting with that unit?
Steven:
We mean harmful.
Jay:
Like you're educating the fish like they're going to. Come in and. Are are they hitting that beam or are they so switched on that you know the they don't sense it? And.
Steven:
Care about it so 100% right. Let me put this one. I encourage anybody put your phone in the zip lock bag and hit your audio recorder. Put a GoPro, put anything under the water right, and then have a conversation at the same volume we're having right now. Hello, Jay. How are you doing right now? We're not emoting. We're not expressive. We're just talking. You're going to hear it 10 feet down.
Jay:
Right. Oh, yeah. I mean, I shoot stuff every week with Tom, with the GoPro, you know?
Steven:
Yeah, you hear.
Jay:
Well, you can hear me really faster. Tom, you know? Yeah.
Steven:
So. Our voices, the sound, the environment is carrying. Right, yeah. The waves slapping create vibration. We're playing a game of vibration, right? If we can all agree that Muskys are a a not a non-visual predator, right? They might clue in on a flash, but they're a vibrational predator. They're lateral line intensive. It's been proven in studies. And how many times have you seen the musky? Well, he, he came in, you know, go fish. Freaking Minnetonka, right? Or whatever. Saying these Metroplex and go go through your AA's and see what happens. You're not gonna have a good time, right? Pressure water. So, there is some kind of corollary between a negative. Incident and vibration. Right. Now what level of conditioning there is? Who knows. We'd have to dissect their brain and understand what's happening happening as far as as memory and corollary and all this stuff. It's it's way above my pay grade. But. We can all agree that fish that see a lot of baits tend to shy away from those presentations, right? What are these presentations doing, Jay? Creating vibration? What does pan optics do like? What is your sonar doing creating vibration?
Jay:
Good point.
Steven:
Right. So. Again, they can't. They can't dilate their eyes. They can't do this. They can't do that. They're near sight of Doctor Bob, who's absolutely brilliant. They subbed him to XY and Z. The science of what we know says. These are truisms. And everything else is vibration so. If they can pick up the difference between double weights and a single weight, I think I can tell when that things. And I'm panoptic is I. I think it's a LV. Whatever. It's like 31 and the 32, right? Umm. Those are 31 beams going at once to post your down skin. Doing one right the way that you yes so little factoid, Jay. Actually, I'm going to tell you something.
Jay:
Really. OK.
Steven:
This is crazy. I've never talked about this. Jay knows this. I'm going to. I'm going to give up the. Ghost on myself. I have participated in Jay. We talked here recently about it. I have participated. As a as a contractor in bathymetry studies, because I have my captain's license, you're aware of that, OK? So there are companies that scan lakes for industrial purposes, they scan lakes for commercial purposes such as C map or Lowrance or Hummingbird or whatever. But I've actually have a contract with a company that does this regarding bathymetry and pipeline. They asked me to run bathymetry studies with their equipment, which is way, way, way over the top right in comparison to what we have on a on a on a consumer grade boat. But they need somebody that can can navigate the boat and hold coordinates and all this fun stuff, right? Having my captain's license that makes me accessible to them, so we've been in this for a while. The grade of transducer that they use, Jay, you can put your hand in the I'm talking down scan. You can feel it.
Jay:
Like, hold it there too long. You'll probably get skin cancer.
Steven:
Yeah, like if you put your hand in the way we check it and we do these, so we we hook this system on the back of my.
Jay:
Steven:
Well, you know, it is. Goodness gracious. The transducer probably cost more than my boat, but it's about the size of a hockey puck, right, which is not that. I mean, hell, I've got bigger transducers. I'm up. Pardon, but the the the wattage if you will. The voltage, the power of the transducer. You can physically feel it in. Your hand, OK. They'll freak you out like whoa. Like it's like somebody like pushing lightly, touching your palm. You're like, whoa, that's weird. Well, your hand is not dialed in to feel that Jay. It takes a decent mile force. Guess what? The Muskys lateral line is hyper-accentuated to do the vibration.
Jay:
Yeah, you're about right, right.
Steven:
So, whether I have established my case or not, I have always been an advocate for do what they will right whatever makes. Happy. You want to drive around with pan optics and you want to harpoon gun them. I don't care. Right. If it's legal, it's legal. You know, I don't recommend it, but what I'm seeing and what I'm getting is this. There's obviously vibration. There's obviously a corollary between the negative effect and that vibration, just like a presentation. If I'm on pressure water right now, I'm blacking out. I'm going dark. Absolutely, positively going dark, right? How do we deal with that? What? Do we do and how they contend? Right, Doc boy, Randy Jay, of all people, pressure. He's on pressure. He caught a fish trolling Jay. If he can do it, anybody can. Right. You know, come on. He's a dock boy named Randy. This, you know everybody Doctor Randy dumped into one. OK, he got he. Actually, he pounded a Minnesota super hog couple days ago. Pathetic.
Speaker 1
But.
Steven:
You're running into on. These wide bodies. Of water, a lot of sharpshooters. I'm going to tell you right now the best way to overcome that pressure is trolling right in the same zones, but trolling blind. What does that mean? You better know where you're going. You better know you're trolling passes ahead of time, right? The other thing I'll throw out is for that I'm doing right now is using my phone and using good mapping apps on my phone that are not connecting to a transducer so. That's an option like on my boat right now I have. I have tons of units. It's ridiculous. But you know, I have a mapping unit J that's not connected trans to a transducer. Right. So, I can actually lean on that. But if you're a typical boat, you got a front boat of a front graph, a back graph, a console graph or a tour graph. Turning that off or turning the transmit off and so using the GPS knowing. OK, I'm here, I'm XY and Z right as far as your path, your trolling pass is. I'm finding it to be beneficial for suspended fish right now. Interesting. OK, one thing I can tell you, it's just like musky fishing always, it's kind of get worse before it gets better. I bring this up for any of your run, huh? Last year, smacking the crap out of one tubes, you know? Or doing this and doing that. And that's way different. Or, you know, they're coming in on on this and then. It's because I I personally believe we're hitting the wall of electronic output from the boat before it's off putting. I mean on my boat right now, 4 graphs, Jay, two up front to the console.
Speaker 1
Right.
Steven:
Right. If you had 40 inches of screen on your boat a decade ago, you were like Kevin Van Damme right now, having 4,10-inch units. I'm like, not even scratching the surface of what is hip. You know. Saying. No, that's not even like whoa. Like I'll. I'll have my boat at the Musky shop. Bash will be parked there and people like, oh, your boat looks great. Nobody's like, holy crap, you got the biggest graphs I've ever seen. No, I have four, it's 4 graphs. Is not shocking anymore. Right. Not at all. Not at all. Yeah, maybe I've put six on there. I might get somebody to. Turn their head.
Jay:
Neighbor Steve's Room 4, yeah.
Steven:
Neighbor Steve, one of them.
Jay:
We'll sit, you know, little 16-foot bolt.
Steven:
I I trust me; I know plenty of dudes that are running.
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Steven:
3-4 grafts. A lot of electrical output, a lot of pulse in the water.
Jay:
I'll.
Steven:
We'll talk about it more. It's just commentary at this point and I and. Like I said. What I've been doing on pressure water is I'm running blind. I'm running my GPS, right, I'm turning everything off except for just GPS, which is not pinging in the. And I'm picking fish up when I'm not like in it again. Is it a false correlation? Is it? Am I turning the the the Panoptics on during the major my there's so many factors where you could go well was this was that was this right? I'm starting to see the benefits of running blind again. Especially for bigger fish. Right. Suspended fish. Bigger fish. It's starting to happen. We try to keep you guys ahead of the trends. That's what I'm saying. It is what it is. Jay Bird, let's get into some Q&A.
Jay:
Sure. Ohh Steve first. Hey, guess what. New video coming out Monday.
Steven:
Now I gotta hold on. Hold on. It's Herbie. Hold on.
Speaker
Steven:
Herback.
Steven:
Now I'm on the I'm we're doing the podcast. You got me and Jay, what are you doing, baby?
Herbeck:
Hello. No, nothing. I'll talk to you later.
Steven:
Well, I wanna. I wanna ask you about something real quick. I just did a rant kind of about what I was seeing. The negative effects of pan optics. Right. And I admit my own hypocrisy. I've been an advocate of it, and now I'm starting to see fish turn off and conditioning. What's your thoughts on pan optics right now, like. How it's conditioning fish and are you seeing that? Or am I crazy?
Herbeck:
No, you're not crazy. I mean, you know, like my my thoughts are. I wish it never happened because I'm kind of old school. But, you know, you gotta stay. Up. You just gotta keep up or.
Steven:
Yeah, you got its arms race, yeah.
Speaker
You know. Some of the best fisherman I know, you know, didn't want to use it, but are forced to to to keep up, you know, and pick up 4050 years of 30 to 50 years of experience and they can't keep up with somebody that's just a geek with ******* electronics, you know.
Steven:
I said that when we're talking about later.
Speaker
So.
Steven:
Right. Yeah.
Herbeck:
So, and as far as fish conditioning, you know, I think I don't think that's even a question. I I was hearing it. Two years, three years ago. So, it it's it happens very, very, very quick.
Jay:
MHM.
Steven:
Yeah, I I brought it up because, you know, I'm starting to see some things. And I said it's like, you know, when double 10s came out, they were unbeatable. Bulldogs came out, they're unbeatable. And then everything wised up. And.
Herbeck:
Yeah, but I mean, you still catch them on on many of you if you get off the hot colors and go to black, they still bite them. You know, there's things like that, but you know, can this thing debates is totally different than being conditioned.
Steven:
Right.
Speaker
MHM.
Herbeck:
To a being that really affects the most sensitive part of their body big time which lateral line and also you know being chased and harassed.
Steven:
There you go. Yeah.
Herbeck:
In areas of the lake, they felt they were secure.
Steven:
That's it, dude. I didn't go there. But let's go there. OK.
Herbeck:
Because I think a lot of these places that they're being targeted now by power snipers now I've used the scope five years now.
Steven:
Preach. Yeah. That works nice. Power diaper freaking folks. You've heard of Chris Kyle, the American sniper. Welcome to musky. Power snipers love it.
Herbeck:
I mean, I mean, you know, I mean guys made it work, but it's just like. Like back in the day, everybody had told me cocaine didn't know it was hurting people. Now they do, right? So.
Speaker 1
So so, hello.
Steven:
Hold on folks, one more time.
Jay:
The analogies keep them coming.
Herbeck:
What was that?
Steven:
What one more time, Herbie. Everybody what?
Herbeck:
No, no, no. What? What's, what's gone? It's gone.
Steven:
What's gone?
Herbeck:
But, but you know, I mean. It's very evident as a matter of fact, I know I talked to the other day and this is a good time to bring it out. But you know, I've used it for three weeks, two or three years now and I've used it as I fished. I didn't power sites like I said before, I didn't drive around open water targeting fish and a lot of these guys.
Jay:
Mm-hmm.
Steven:
Right.
Herbeck:
Maybe they catch the chase or two, chased him around, but my experiences are scope fish. If they don't. If you get this cash right, if they don't bite the first case. They probably aren't gonna and these guys are chasing them around for hours, changing bits, throwing at them, and you're gonna tell me that muskys are smart. The ******* sharpest hits in the country world ain't gonna become conditioned to ****.
Jay:
Herbeck:
You know I. Mean it's it's getting sickening. You know what I mean? And. So, I mean grassroots are you know, you know, I have a love affair. 35 well over half of of my life, a lot of blood, sweat and tears. I gained a lot. I lost a lot. I lived a lot. I I damn near died a lot on Eagle Lake. Yeah, and the guys are moving up onto it. They have great Vermillion and leach and blacks were fresh blood. And I can't let it happen. I only got a few years left and the last thing that I can that I want to see is the lake that I love more than anything in this world. Something happened to it, like what's happening on other bodies of water. Yeah, he had the chance. We had the chance, I think, because Eagle Lake is the only lake with the Eagle Lake Association that convinced the D and the M&R to put a night fishing band. The only lake in the world that has a night fishing ban. And it. And the the proof is there. Yeah, it seems if the wallet fishes so now they can.
Steven:
Yeah. I I laughed about that. I laughed about that and then not to cut you off, but to slow you down. But because the ADD's on fire. Here. I've always laughed about it. People like, is that pan on Eagle Lake for night fishing for safe navigation like no one cares if you wreck your ****. That's to protect the walleyes.
Herbeck:
Yeah, you can be out there having fun with your old lady all night. You know, you just can't be fishing right now. Now we're up proposing. What I'm proposing in this deal is. Band scope because what I want, you know, to be the place that you scope your **** off any place that make that that's legal and get your fill of it and then come to Eagle Lake and fish big fish like we did for 50 years. You know, you know the real way. And and I and to leave it that way and not to, you know, have all the big, beautiful, big white ghosts that show up in the fall, not show up anymore. Fish running from boats and everything else is already enough pressure. So, my proposal is gonna be. Let's take off night fishing and and and since it's saved the wildlife fishery, I mean, it's now #3 in the Ontario in Mala fishery and take away life scope. Let's save the Muskys now.
Speaker 1
Hmm.
Steven:
But tell us how you really feel. I'm not. So, you know, it's interesting. I mean, some people might say, OK, I just did a rant for at least 30 minutes about, like, my feelings, how I'm seeing it influence my fishing negatively. Right.
Herbeck:
Yeah.
Steven:
And like you said, I feel like we're having this moment and I I said it earlier, I think where I said. This isn't gonna impact the average guys fishing until next year or the year after, when it's too late and it it, it happens quick where like is it the genie out of the bottle moment is it, is it 1?
Herbeck:
That's true, right? It happens, yeah.
Steven:
Of these things because. Again, I'm not saying good or bad. I'm not here to comment on that. What are you seeing as far as like the the like when Muskys hit that beam? Are they turning off? What what? What is the like Steve Herbeck on the water you're seeing it, what are you seeing happen physically with the fish?
Speaker 1
Well.
Herbeck:
It happens quick within a season. And I wasn't like I said I wasn't power sniper. I just use it as I'm fishing to see if there's a fish behind me once in a while. Stuff like that for a quick a quick.
Jay:
Mm-hmm.
Herbeck:
First cast at a fish that followed in and just bite. Find it. Which way is it going? One good, accurate bad cast at it, you know, that's what we use it for that if that if they could be used like that, obviously you're not gonna legally make that differentiation. I don't think it will.
Steven:
Yeah.
Speaker
Absolutely.
Herbeck:
Negatively affect. That many because they're used but but you start, but everybody's got abuse. ****, right? Yeah. That's just the nature. That's the human nature. So, they gotta they gotta be able to have 5-7 scopes on their boat. Go 5 miles an hour. Cover 4500 acres a day. That's out of hand.
Steven:
Well, and then this is The thing is like you and I, I think we didn't finish last. Year. But we finished the year before. Right.
Herbeck:
Yeah.
Steven:
And I you had just got your you you had the low rent scope on.
Herbeck:
Right. No, I think we thought we.
Steven:
Scope? No, but we moved one fish where we're like, where is he? And we we. He's behind the boat. And it's something that is I'm going to give up something that a lot of people don't know but a lot of guys with scope know.
Herbeck:
Yeah.
Steven:
But. A lot of times the following fish will be behind your boat after he breaks off.
Speaker 1
Right.
Herbeck:
Well, a lot of people think they run right back to where they came from. That seldom happens. Most of most of the time they go under the boat. Keep going.
Steven:
Nope. They got open water. Yep, and they'll be behind you. So, he followed in. He broke off the eight you throw on the other side of the boat fish. On. Right. That was an in that, honest to God, you and I talked about that.
Herbeck:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Steven:
Two years. You're like, oh, don't tell anybody. I remember you remember that conversation we're like, oh, hell no. Right, we were. You said Steve, do you remember or not remember? You're like, what are they doing for you when they and I'm like they're going behind the.
Speaker 1
Perfect.
Steven:
Boat. We're like Ohh yeah.
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
Steven:
And it's one of these. It's like this weird the whole conversation with live scope. It's this weird, hypocritical thing where, like I said, there, like every guy had to compete. Like, if you didn't have it, you were a scrub. Right. And and I said earlier I said, well, I've, I have one on my.
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Steven:
But. I if I had 10% of all the panoptic units I saw from a lot of clients that go home, they go holy ****, what you do? You have them by four of them.
Herbeck:
Yeah, yeah. I mean I’m; I'm going to be. Somewhat of a hypocrite if if it's. Not bad, or until it's bad. I'm going to use it. But I'm not gonna cry anymore and ditch if if, if it is, if it is bad and I'm gonna be happy that everybody's on the same page.
Steven:
Yeah. Yeah. And its a, it's an interesting thing because you go. I honest to goodness, I think a lot. And again, I'm not picking. Listen, if you're an open water sniper. Enjoy yourself.
Herbeck:
Yeah, yeah. But I just don't. Don't come to you.
Steven:
To like but my my my thing is this I'm going. Yeah, I what I said, right, you're timing the call. Was it literally guys just wasn't playing like? Your call was like perfection. One time I was telling Jay, I said I'm picking up more fish when I go dark, I turn everything off, right? Nothing.
Herbeck:
Well, one thing I do, especially when I'm live bait fishing is when I see a fish come up onto my live bait, I instantly turned the transducer the other way. My bikes go to about four out of 10, with the with keeping the beam on the live big fish. It's about one out of 10.
Steven:
Wow. It's interesting, I mean.
Herbeck:
Yeah. So, here's the thing. The reason I thought that I sound so passionate about it is that, you know, I I I got a couple of good friends who really started some of this stuff and very, very good. Kitchen made memories for a lot of people who couldn't really cast all day. So, there's that aspect too, right?
Jay:
Yeah.
Herbeck:
But, but you know, I mean one or two guys doing it, you know, all of a sudden this year it's not even July and there's five or six in the section of the lake still open the middle of the lake at high speed.
Steven:
Ohh. No, dude, it's a billion.
Herbeck:
With with multiple. So, what's gonna be like in July in August? What's it gonna be like next year? Tenfold. And it's gonna be over.
Steven:
Well, that's the that's The thing is like in, in the hypocrisy of guiding is like you gotta keep up on the latest trend, right? I told Jay earlier I said for a guide to not have live scope. Four years ago, was like going Ohh. I don't throw double tins. They're dumb.
Herbeck:
Yeah, yeah.
Steven:
Right. So, there's a level of hypocrisy there, but also too like me. You, Danny, Cal, Cal Ritchie. You know, we don't have the Eagle Lake meet up and go out there and run our boats 60 feet apart and scan like, like, we're trolling for shrimp.
Herbeck:
Hey. Right, right.
Steven:
You know everybody get together. Let's have the live scope troll. Off.
Herbeck:
And and you know you can be against it and that's great for those people too. But most, most of them, you know, haven't used it. So, you know, it is a cool deal. It's funny how it's just too bad that.
Jay:
Yeah.
Herbeck:
You know it's it's harmful on the fishery. For one thing, it's it's not. It's not just the fish changing their patterns.
Speaker 1
Or or how?
Herbeck:
Condition they're going. Me. You know, there's more to it than that. When you up the catch rates by tenfold or more. Yeah, that means that there's that much more mortality, no matter how well you take care of fish, mortality happens.
Steven:
Yeah, absolutely.
Herbeck:
So, when you start having multiple, multiple, multiple people or everybody. Scoping and power scoping and catching many more fish witches. We're there to catch fish, but when it gets to a certain point. You all all of a sudden now you're you really have the potential of hurting a history, and particularly the most vulnerable fish, unfortunately, are the biggest. Those are the ones that die.
Speaker
Yeah.
Herbeck:
The easiest.
Steven:
Let me ask you this, and I'm again not a letter question. I I've always said we're, you know, people talk about the Golden Age of things, right, the Golden Age of musky fishing. Yeah. Are we at the end of like the best phase of musky fishing because of it? Because I've always felt like the last decade has been the best musky fishing ever been ever bake is everyone has catch and release. We have braided line, we have great leaders, we have great lures, right? Could this potentially be the end of the Golden Age where you? That's a that's a tough. Question I'm turning into I'm turning into Barbara Walters.
Herbeck:
Well, you know, I I don't know. I don't know you. It depends on how you define golden. You know what I mean? I mean, you know, for a while it's gonna increase catch rates. Like I said, more than tenfold. You know, it's just increased. It's almost like the Internet. How fast is that rapidly changing and and it's? Almost what live scope is. It's like the Internet, and that's how rapidly it's gonna it's how rapidly it's developing, how rapidly it's gonna it's changing fishing and how we fish for them. And and we haven't even seen the effects yet. We are only assuming. Yeah, but it's a it's a fact that the markets you catch, the more mortality that's gonna be, that's why they put catch release on like school because of limited spawning and everybody going up there to catch their biggest fish when it first was discovered, they had to put no catch policy on that lake.
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Speaker
Yeah.
Herbeck:
Because of mortality.
Steven:
Yeah.
Herbeck:
And it wasn't because the people thought to them, it's even people just taking care of them. The biggest fish die easy.
Steven:
That preach on. I mean, that's always a truism because like. I if the Muskys I have seen die on my boat, right? Absolute Hammer handles are giants. That's it. You don't kill many 44. I can't think of like a 44A47A40.
Herbeck:
Yeah.
Steven:
Have I killed fish over 50? Yes. You know, I again. I'm. The guy that will.
Herbeck:
You know, it just depends on the beach. It's the tongue. You know, if if the book gets stuck in the tongue, you bleed to death.
Steven:
Yeah.
Herbeck:
People don't realize.
Steven:
They they that's yeah.
Herbeck:
That that's where their heart is, you know.
Steven:
Yeah, they, they, they just pump out blood or you hook them, you know, some of these big fish come in. You're throwing double eights and they hog them and you hook them in the gills and it's moving on, you know.
Herbeck:
Well, and then that's another point that it can't be probably regulated, but I'm going to try and stress to. Those things and maybe with you, as long as you're here, I'm gonna throw it out there now. I personally think all rubber like tubes, Bulldogs, but doses of stuff under 14 inches should be all barbarous.
Steven:
- Yeah.
Herbeck:
I mean, I you won't lose any fish. I mean, I I I can't tell you how many tubes I've taken out through the. Because if you're working rubber base right and not working like a sewer, just what you have to do over shallow weeds or so come. But that's how most people, lot of younger people are using rubber. If if you let them drop you give them a pause and you let them drop you watch the best rubber fishing in the world. That's how they're fishing.
Steven:
Right, right. Boom.
Herbeck:
And when they drop, that's when they grab it by they they intercept it, grab it by that, and they it's they don't that for that split second one there's no tension. They think it's real. They turn it fast. A lot of times that's how they get that the head of that bait into the back of their mouth and into into their. Well, and I think we would save a lot of fish by going barb less on rubber baits, especially tubes.
Steven:
Something I'll say this. And again, I love the crack and obviously it's that's my bait, my baby.
Herbeck:
Yeah, but they don't know. It's when they grab that they hit that hard head well. So, I haven't got 1 deep on the cracker.
Steven:
That was exactly what I was about to go for, and I still. When I'm in Canada, I take the middle hook off for that very reason. Yeah. But but the hard head, like soft baits, they tend to hard heads. They go and they chunk and hold.
Herbeck:
Yeah. Or try or or actually try and shake it.
Steven:
And and the different. And and it's one of these things like. You you what you just said and it's it's it's a truism. You have to catch a ton of muskys to see that difference.
Herbeck:
Yeah, yeah.
Steven:
You have to catch. You know we're not. Steve Herbeck does not catch 50 Muskys a year, nor do I. Right. We're going. OK, we got a few 100 muskys here. OK, when it's soft to go gunk. And when it's hard to get. And the hookups better that that. That's a whole different conversation because like, again, holy crap. And this is not a conservation variation of the podcast.
Speaker
Yeah.
Steven:
When the.
Herbeck:
No, I don't like to call to say hi and now you got me all riled up.
Steven:
Hell yeah. Remember I I'm sitting here looking at the my wall right here in the bait caves. It looks like the Musky shop exploded the original Bulldogs. The first ones. I'm not talking. I'm talking the ones that had like little scale patterns and he was hand pouring them right.
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Steven:
The amount of fish that destroyed those right, that small size. I am not big on, like July and August, not throwing standard sized dogs or smaller dogs for that very reason.
Herbeck:
Yeah. Well, I I compared almost to like.
Steven:
I've seen.
Herbeck:
Seriousness of of of potentially mortally hooking a fish, comparing it almost to the old live bait. Single hook days. Yeah, yeah. If if if you have. If you have them Barber, just pinch the barbs off. They have so much easier to get out or if they're hard to get out when you cut them they then. Very easy to get up, you know. So, I, I and you don't lose fish. I started doing it last fall. And and you don't lose any fish.
Steven:
Yeah.
Herbeck:
I mean not electric drift. Three nine of them.
Steven:
Let me. Let let let me ask you this and and this is. I I don't have any biological reasoning for this. You and I have held together. We've held musky mouths open, right? And if you stare at a musky mouth.
Herbeck:
Yeah.
Steven:
Internet.
Speaker
Yeah.
Steven:
They have this web structure at the bottom of their mouth and the very center in that webbing. Is this very vascular section? You know? Is that what I'm talking about? Her back, right?
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah.
Steven:
If you get a hook there, it seems like they 90% of them just die.
Herbeck:
That's where their heart is. People think their hearts in their belly like us. It isn't. It's in the back of their throat.
Steven:
Are we positive on that or what is that like?
Herbeck:
Yeah, yeah, for calling Rick Jackson. Ask him. That's why they bleed. That's why they die when you hook them in the back of that tub.
Steven:
So, it's in in the bottom of the mouth, right. There you go. Crap. Because, you know, knock on wood. I'll admit I can think of like five or six that I'm like, OK, I killed this fish. Now that's a thousands of fish where I've held them by the tail and gun. That thing's dead. Right, kill me. Herbie, you've killed fish. Right. I mean you you catch enough, they die. Sorry, everybody.
Herbeck:
Yeah, yeah. Back in her back in her dad alarm. Intentional.
Steven:
Alright, that's folks. When they put Steve.
Herbeck:
But but since 90 but it's 91, I have it, and yeah, everyone, every one of them hurts, you know.
Speaker
Wait.
Steven:
Yeah. When he Steve Herbeck goes in the freshwater Hall of Fame, they will bronze his tire iron. But golden. Sorry, blood.
Herbeck:
Yeah, it's golden. It's already.
Steven:
Oh, but there's that section and. And man, we're on a different subject here with like, more hooks are not better. That's a whole other thing.
Speaker
Yeah.
Steven:
Where it's just like there's you get them in that back of the the very back of that webbing. They're just they're just done. You pull it out and you go. Ohh. They're just pumping blood and you go. That's it. That's the end of it. They're over with, but you know, back to the live scope thing, you know.
Herbeck:
Yeah. The only reason I was so passionate about it is, is I just, you know, it was really cool. I really enjoyed using it. I caught some extra fish. I caught a couple of real big fish cuz of it. But. It just. I just see it. Being abused, your point where it's just not even fair to the fish you know, and and it's basically being lazy not to mean that musculation has to break your every bone in your body or tear every tendon like it has me over the years, but.
Steven:
Yeah.
Herbeck:
But you know, it should be just driving around 8 hours a day and making 20 cash. You know, I I just don't. I just don't agree with that anymore. At first I thought, man, that that's really cool till I saw the impact and how much how fast they caught on and how how sharp. So many people are at it and how many people are just going out and going overboard with it and I mean. It's it's gonna look like downtown New York out in. The middle of. Our lakes man, you know what I mean.
Steven:
Yeah. I.
Herbeck:
Well, one thing that's interesting, one thing that's very interesting that I should bring up. I had a talk with Luke Ronstadt this winter is a very good friend of mine and one of the most astute and and sharp mostly in the country. And he said on Eagle because of the stuff power sharp shooters.
Steven:
Yeah, he's a great guy. Yeah.
Herbeck:
The power snipers they're seeing.
Speaker
Yep.
Herbeck:
Some bigger fish starting to revert back to structure where. That's why people started power sniping is because of the extreme pressure day and all night the million was singing on structure 10/15/20 years ago. That's what moved the fish around the fish even more than the the natural suspension rate and that's why the snipers.
Steven:
Controllers, yeah.
Herbeck:
We're doing so good. Well now because of the extreme pressure on sniping day and night now. There's just some guys that are doing it on a really good they are just doing a long night because those same fish you can can't catch during the day anymore. And now the second generation they're able to catch them up, catch them for a while now anyway till they get wise to that after dark. But now those fish are starting to move back in. More of its structure, like it was years ago because of the pressure out there. So, these fish, you know. They don't like to be. You know we're. Well, they don't. They they don't like it when they're when they're getting pressured, you know what I'm saying? So there is that aspect too. So, I just thought I'd throw that out there.
Steven:
Absolutely it it's super interesting. Like like I said, I was. I was when I was talking to Jay in the beginning of this like. You know, not saying it's good, not saying it's bad, it is what it is. You know it's it's it's it's especially with the podcast. Like we're always trying to keep guys ahead of the curve. You know we there there might be the next thing there might be this, there might be that but. You know the the trend right now and you're singing in Wisconsin before you got to to to eagle the amount of Wisconsin guys here drive around doing this.
Herbeck:
Yeah. A couple weeks ago, the only guys that were doing most, they were doing multiple fish days were the power sniper. No, these are small basins. What I what I found out this last week and a half I just got home today the last week and a half, the small lakes Cisco basin lakes are small, the 400 thousand 1500-acre lakes with a base and that's half that. They're seeing obviously the fish running from the beach and running from the foods and not moving on and stuff like that. I started trolling those lake and the fish are responding to the trolling presentation better than the than the than the scope so.
Steven:
Yeah, that's exactly what I said on the the before you call was, you know my game right now for pressures go black, dark, everything, turn everything off, maybe don't turn your map off or. If you if it's not connected to transducer, get that transducer out of the water and now things are happening where. You know, it's trends. It must be.
Herbeck:
Even 25 years ago. I mean when I put, you know I as before life scope, I mean I knew the effects on those big fish on Eagle and when I found a fish on a on a reef, a big fish on a reef and I went back on it, I would sell a bully. I would sell a bully. So I think like the old school. So, I knew exactly where.
Steven:
There you go. Yes, Sir.
Herbeck:
The fish I tore off the side 50 feet from exactly where that fish was. You know, and I would then I would go out in case that fish went was moving to another another location. I would start way out and fan cast my way in all my electronics and everything off trolling, motor, everything, just free drift and that's how I caught. I wrote an article about it must be on her.
Steven:
I'm working here.
Herbeck:
Long time ago, you know, this was 25 years ago.
Steven:
Right.
Herbeck:
And and it it, it works. You know what I mean? Those fish know were there when? When you drive up in your boat and you start your truck, don't think they don't know you're there.
Steven:
Absolutely. Yeah.
Herbeck:
And and now with that high beam of the of the of the life scope, man, they they're running a lot of money. They're they're come, they they make they may they may come into 40 I'm hearing 40 feet is magic.
Steven:
It seems like it is, yeah. Seems like I said that it's funny because it said that earlier, not even talking to you about it.
Speaker 1
Yes, yes.
Steven:
I was like 40 feet, was like, whoa, with the cut.
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah.
Steven:
Guys, we're not telling you not to run it. We're not telling you it's bad. We're. No, we're telling you what? What guides you're saying? So, you're not three years behind the curve.
Herbeck:
No, I'm not. I'm not against it. Yeah, I'm, I mean, I I don't fault anybody that you said. I just, I just felt the people that I feel are overdoing it.
Steven:
Well, I mean I'm I again, I mean, I'm just not a fan of personally. This is personal. Going.
Herbeck:
I mean, I'm. I'm I'm critical. I got one. You know what? I use it.
Steven:
Yeah, I've you got? Yeah, I got it too. But you go out with 7 units and you make like you said, four cash and get fish. That's great. You got a fish, but oh, I I just don't want to stand there. Instead of the screen all day. Yeah, you know and and I think that's fine if you want to do that. I'm not mad at you. You know, people get. Mad. But I get it. You spend, you know, 2000 and $3000 on one of these units, you want to get the most out? So, but some of this power, like you said, power sniping. It's so well put. Where it's, you know, that's it, it's like. You know it? Let me put this way and I I don't talk **** often, but let's talk ****. Don't, don't. Don't you dare go. Let's go. Electronics. Off musky fishing on Eagle Lake.
Herbeck:
No, no, no.
Steven:
You know #1, you'll wreck your boat before you, before me and her back. Meet up for shore lunch. You'll die, you know.
Herbeck:
Oh, oh, nothing that scares me. That's coming along with this power sniping is. The Hummingbird map that's going to be out here, it's probably going to have stuff on it. I don't even. Know about. So, you put those things together. You put those things together and oh, my God, how much pressure? And then everybody from Minnesota, there's a lot of people from Minnesota and northern Wisconsin, you know, Illinois. You know that that.
Steven:
Yeah, absolutely.
Herbeck:
No. You know there there's a lot of people scoping where they fit, so now they're looking for fresh meat and I just don't want to see that happen on Eagle Lake. That's all I, I mean, like, I don't have nothing against the technology. I just don't wanna see it on your legs.
Steven:
Well. Mm-hmm. Well, hopefully things things work out and it'll be, you know, it'll be what it is. Well, let let's transition to something more pleasant here. Back. What are you seeing in in Wisconsin right now? How's the buy? How are you contending with everything that's going on right now?
Herbeck:
It's picking up. It's picking up pretty good now week ago. So, it was pretty tough for me with all the thoughts coming through and and to be honest, there's more fish on that secondary break than there is in the weeds, you know.
Steven:
Uh-huh. Ye yes Sir.
Herbeck:
And so unless you can find a deep flat with, you know, like 15 to 17 foot flat, that's got weeds up to about four or five feet, then there's fishes and that kind of stuff. But I'm I'm not doing real. Well, you know, on the traditional weed edge type of of fishing, I wasn't. I I I think I got 1314 fish last week trolling you know and then and then the last couple of days we got full lost, a tremendous fish out on a flat like I told you about. But all the trailers were not over the. Listen, we were on that break like like the basing 60 feet. These just were like 28 to 35, you know on that secondary break and. And that's what I'm seeing and I haven't fished enough after dark couple, my buddies have done very well few times they've been out, but it's just that I can't. I can't get clients to fish after dark like I did 30 years ago. I used to look like a I used to look like an albino come September. He lives after dark but.
Steven:
Oh yeah.
Herbeck:
But it's just hard to find people that wanna do it all night. You know anymore.
Steven:
Well, let me ask you this. Harvey, do you have any days in in Canada this year or what's? Going on in this year.
Herbeck:
Well, you know, I I go up there and doing instructional deal and get to fish with some of my old friends and stuff that I'm basically there like they sent me and the guy’s smart maps do all that kind of stuff, you know and and and spend time with my with all.
Steven:
Instruct yeah.
Herbeck:
The models you. Know a lot of the guys are. They're still show them the new stuff, that's. Going on so they can do better. Job, you know, some of my friends stopped by and you get to get out, get get to go out and things like that, you know, that's so that's the kind of gig I do. I get to get out and go fishing and fish are some of my old friends and that. But I'm basically there to help the young new guys get on track and.
Steven:
I'm speaking speaking great Segway. Speaking of Danny has been doing a a Canadian muscular report and Danny's just tearing them up up there.
Herbeck:
Yeah, yeah, he's just starting to musky fish. So, he's really he's really had a good season on big rallies, you know.
Steven:
You know. You. Fantastic. So awesome. Well, Herbie, I I. I'll. I'll call you for whatever you wanted to scream at me about later, but I appreciate you. I appreciate your will.
Herbeck:
Yeah. Now I can't. Now I can't even remember.
Steven:
It doesn't matter. It was great. I appreciate you chiming in and just just for the the sheer veracity of just talking about it and you know it. It guys, it is what it is. When you've been doing this long enough, you know, a lot of guys that they, they come into musky fishing, they get real ******** about it for four or five years and they. Up and when? When Herbeck's been doing it this long and I've been guiding forever. You you see it and you go; how do we stay ahead of the the then the next thing you know. What do you do next? Next next next next, next. Because nothing lasts forever. Sort of feels like that. Herbie, appreciate.
Speaker 1
Oh.
Speaker
Before it was time.
Herbeck:
Before time on the water trumped everything. You know what I mean and that's not.
Steven:
Yeah. No more, you know.
Herbeck:
That that curve is over with like with with the electronics, you know?
Jay:
Yes.
Steven:
Absolutely. Well, Herbie, I appreciate your gambit. You soon, OK.
Speaker
OK, right.
Steven:
Be. Yeah. Jay, we wish. We wish that was.
Jay:
Steve Herbeck, ladies and gentlemen, folks who?
Steven:
That is how rare the podcast is. Herbie calls right in the middle of that. I'm telling you about my thing. He goes off and it it just is what it is.
Jay:
Some interesting stuff there really very thought provoking really is.
Steven:
And you listen, get it. That's what it is. That's what I think. That's what he thinks. You know, I'm not saying whatever hot button hot in the hot tub, hot tub, hot tub anyway.
Jay:
Yeah.
Steven:
We were going to talk about. The Swiss Army of Musky fishing video coming out very shortly.
Jay:
Right, that's right. Should be coming out Monday. That's tomorrow.
Steven:
So got a new video, a master class video coming out also too. I have no desire to edit out all the bad words her back said right. So yeah, some guy this week.
Jay:
There's a few.
Steven:
Left some stupid review called me Potty Mouth because I say words you can say on network TV. Let go over to go to Apple Podcast or whatever. Leave, listen on, leave a 5-star review for us if you if you would because it's getting old with the BS, that's all I'll say, right? So, if you like the podcast. Get a apple, go to Spotify, leave a 5-star review. We would appreciate it. We've never asked in five years, but something like you have a potty mouth. I'm a fishing guide. I am not your Deacon at the church. OK, so clearing that up anyway, guys, we will. Honest to God, we're doing in real time here as always.
Jay:
Yeah, that's true.
Steven:
We will get to your Q&A next week. That was not the plan, but we will hit it next week. If you send a question in. We're just running long. Jaybird, yes, Steve, say good night.
Jay:
Night, everybody. Thank you.
Herbeck:
Man, come on. I had a rough night and I hate the ******* Eagles, man.
Speaker 1
On a block water flow, which booming in my hair, big cloud of mosquitoes rising up through the. Up ahead in the distance saw the cloud. I have to cast all the night.Baby in my side spill. Where she swam in the weed bag. With her mission thou? This could be the fish I need. Gotta think this thing and she must step up. And she swam away. Never saw that thing to say. Fish again, I've got one. Listen to the Musty 360 podcast. You would have thought and then you would have thought. 360 podcast. Any time of year.
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