Musky 360 Podcast Episode 259: Late Season Q&A
Transcript
Steven:
Alright folks, welcome to the Musky 360 podcast. Jay Bird, what is going on, buddy?
Jay:
Steve. Not not a whole lot.
Steven:
How about you? I am just off the water. Still bleeding. I just took a pretty good tooth. And as they say.
Jay:
You took the tooth tooth to the hand.
Speaker
2nd.
Steven:
Tooth and they gave the old right there in the hand so that no, no, just yes, it it actually didn't even catch it just jumped out like bit me.
Jay:
You got bit you got bit. By a rabid muskie. They do that.
Steven:
Now getting getting one out of the net. And I I'm freaking munged up.
Jay:
Been dangerous.
Steven:
Finger already. Who is exciting? What I gotta ask because I I I've been so busy this week barely talk to you, man. What's going on weather wise? Because I mean, it's still not normal, is.
Jay:
Normal temps I guess is one way to put it then I think was around 45 today. Light rain all day on and off much of the same coming in the in the forecast this week so we didn't really have any warm days all week you know couple of days were nice you know they felt nice because you know might hit 50 and the sun was out in the afternoon.
Steven:
Right, right.
Jay:
Is it? Yeah.
Speaker 1
What?
Speaker 4
What are you saying?
Steven:
Is it? Is it the end? Or or where? What's the vibe? You know what I'm saying? Because I'm not seeing. It seeing a.
Jay:
Lot. Well, so many people have hung up their boats and put them away for the year. That's that's the only drawback to getting good information on the water. You know, there's not a lot of people fishing right now coming in and and our guide staff and stuff. You know, people move on to deer hunting and all that around here. So.
Steven:
Yeah.
Jay:
Typically we'd be looking at ice form and and being an issue relatively soon. But but it's not anywhere you know. I mean I I know some people out of state too that are.
Steven:
That's the same, yeah.
Jay:
Still fishing and and doing well.
Steven:
Oh yeah, that out. That, that, that ain't nothing. Yeah, that, that, that, that zone cause I know Freddie just put his boat away. He I guess he was talking to Joe the other day and said, hey, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah blah. He was wrapping it up and I'm going.
Jay:
The arguments all and stuff. Yeah.
Steven:
It's not over.
Jay:
Now it's 116. He's got an excuse. And he likes to deer hunt. He needs a gear or two, and then he gets hot dogs made out of the deer.
Steven:
Ah. Well, that's just guessing, I mean.
Jay:
I'm. Yeah, he's a Wiener king, so.
Steven:
Yeah. Yeah, it's kind.
Jay:
I mean, come on.
Steven:
So I, you know, it's funny. I saw the last laugh this morning. I was cracking up. I was just by myself laughing in my truck.
Jay:
It's true.
Steven:
This guy just jumps out at the gas station. I'm like, why is he in a orange vest, right?
Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.
Steven:
And he's just drenched in blood and I look over and the guys got, like, an old Ford Windstar. Like the mini saying with this tear and it's just banging over the top of the Ford Windstar van. No offense. If you drive a Ford or Aerostar or whatever the heck it was like an old school like late 80s, early 90s, van, there's just blood everywhere. It's. Funny. Yeah, so. Yeah, I'm kind of kind of they. Like kind of rough down here, Jay, it is rough, Higgins. But yeah, I'll tell you it's it's weird. It it's just strange, strange, strange across the board because this week for me been catching the heck out of fish, but it's been. Way too warm. Just way, way too warm. I was looking at my notes and you know, thinking back. The last couple of years where it's it's kind of it's cold, you know, it's getting there. You're you're you're definitely feeling out already this time of year and it is just unseasonably warm still.
Jay:
OK, OK.
Steven:
You know I'm rocking, dude. I'm rocking like mid 60s water temp sometimes.
Jay:
Oh wow. OK.
Steven:
Yeah, it's crazy. Like wrapped up this evening. We we were put a Donkey Kong in the boat and. Looking at, it's like OK Sun setting all this stuff, it's 63. It's like my head's still still just the fall pattern where it's just never ending fall, you know? It's like, OK, when's it going to fall off the Cliff or when are the temps going to change, which I think is going to happen here shortly. I mean, surely by Thanksgiving, which is. Surreal that it's the 10th of November already. I feel like I left. Feel like I left Canada an hour and a half ago, but yeah, just kind of bizarro land stuff where where I can't make heads or tails out of the out of the weather. It's always different every year, you know, it's. It's one of those deals. Where? Everybody's going to complain about the weather, but this one feels different, you know? And you talked to. We had Danny and Joe Cooper last week and, you know, talking to her back. And we've been watching where it's just been a different kind of scene, you know, I. I haven't need to give Danny a holler. I'm sure he's cracked a couple this week, but you know, just unseasonably warm. Well, I mean, Jay. What? What do you think? What? What's your Jimmy? The Greek level prediction? For the absolute. Longest it's going to be fishable North Woods. What do you think? Like, when when will the ice come or what's going to happen?
Jay:
The end of December, some point into December.
Steven:
You think room alright? Alright. I gotta make it. You're gonna make it to. It's not well. What? How many weeks you got? You got a couple. What, you think you got 4 weeks?
Jay:
Yeah, I think.
Steven:
Open water left.
Jay:
Yeah, I do 100%. Yeah, not much cold in the long. I mean, you know, even if it's only highs in the 40s and it's not freezing, freezing. I think I think there's 2 frost or two freezes in the forecast for this week.
Steven:
Man.
Jay:
So that doesn't form ice very quick.
Steven:
Anywhere. No. So I mean that's that's kind of one of those deals where you've got a serious, I mean you don't get these opportunities much. We talked about with the Canada stuff, you don't get kind of this crack at it where you know.
Jay:
Yeah.
Steven:
You know, like you said, you're not seeing a lot of people coming in and and and piling up the suckers, which means there's not a lot of pressure and you know, like you said, most people are. Out there hunting white tail.
Jay:
Well, I mean the the information last week with Joe and Danny I thought was was very interesting because I didn't. Completely realized what it was like in Canada. You know, being here all summer, right? And then they had it was a whole different environment, a whole different world. And they had to do a lot of adaptation of and they figured it out. And both of them in their own way, you know, pretty quick.
Steven:
Yeah.
Speaker
Right.
Jay:
But you know, like I think Danny was saying he's like there's gonna be a big fish caught this week. You know, you don't normally have this opportunity. There's normally we can't get out, you know, camps closed November 1st or whatever.
Steven:
Yeah, it's done. Yeah. Yeah, they fight nights on the reels, yeah.
Jay:
And then you move on, you know. You're fighting nice, and it's just like you. Know coming into. One of the physicals, respond and all that, man.
Steven:
What if? Yeah. Ohh yeah, I mean.
Jay:
Just some serious thoughts going up there this week because. You have water every day, probably.
Steven:
Absolutely. And I mean Cisco spawns, what, 55? And the fallers at the high 40s. I can't recall off. The top of my head.
Jay:
No, it's it's lowering that when you got the, you know around the full moon, they always say, you know, which is what, this Friday or something like that really could be some interesting stuff cooking up there, been around here.
Steven:
Yeah, that's right. Too, you know, that's what I'm getting at. Because you have some some bodies, water with ciscos and. You know, I don't know. Like I said, somebody's somebody's gonna stick a pig. You know? You just you don't have that chance very often. And they're kind of they're kind of. They're kind of trending that way. It's one of those deals. But anyway, in a shocking twist, shocking twist. Twist. There's still stuff showing up at the shop. You know, I thought we'd be done.
Speaker 1
You don't.
Jay:
I know we were talking last week or. Two weeks ago. It's like you're like Jay. What's new? What's going on at the shop? Would you get? It's like, well, really, I mean we're at the end of the season in terms of stuff coming in and and in terms of the debuting new stuff, you know, it'll be around the time when the catalog comes out, which is late January, which is when the sports.
Speaker 1
Right.
Jay:
She was starting all that the new season. Uh.
Speaker 4
Right, yeah.
Jay:
One day, I think Tuesday we got. Four new spinner baits from rough tackle alright got the.
Steven:
New crumb here. Hold on. OK. Slow her down.
Jay:
For inking nitriles. Whole bunch of stuff.
Speaker 1
Well.
Jay:
I was going to list them and get into them. I mean, just an enormous amount of.
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Steven:
Yeah, I was shocked. I just. I just pulled it up here cause I mean, you know, it shouldn't be showing up. Wait, what? The other thing is this that you said catalog this year is January. When should you get it and when are we going to have the? If you haven't signed up, yeah.
Speaker 1
For me.
Steven:
If you.
Jay:
It mails in late January every year, so most people start getting it the first week of.
Steven:
February and is for in in the further you are from Wisconsin, the longer it takes. Prepare yourself sometimes and I can't recall. I'm sure we'll have the thing up here shortly, probably around December. That if you've made a purchase, you're signed up correct this calendar here. OK. Gotcha. So if you, if you bought something from the shop there and if if you're if. You're questioning if you did or not. You can sign up. They'll be on the website. We'll get it up there for pretty soon, but no new and exciting stuff. Jay's been working tirelessly, tirelessly on.
Speaker 1
MMM.
Jay:
The to do a lot of pictures this week. One day, actually. Yeah. I think he was.
Steven:
Kettle. Let me ask. You. What's the? What's the trend on pricing? For next year. This is what's interesting, because every, yeah, every year, Jay forking when you do the catalog. This is when Jay gets to go. Hey, what's that going to cost next year?
Jay:
Yeah, there's some people ask me about that, yeah.
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
Jay:
That's a really important factor. You know, it's just like how much are we buying this stuff for, you know, did it go up? Is it the same? Did it go down?
Steven:
Right. What's what's, what's it going to cost somebody to buy this thing? Are you? Seeing.
Jay:
Yeah, surprisingly, the majority of of manufacturers are holding their prices, meaning they didn't change anything, which is great news. You know, few companies, few bigger ones, had some price increases. But which is the norm? I mean, stuff goes up every year, the cost. But no, not this year. Really. There's there's gonna be a lot the majority of stuff in the catalog and the pricing wise is the same actually. Yeah, it's awesome.
Steven:
Yeah. Well, it's been jumped. Well, it's been jumping. You know, like you said from year to year here here as of late, where is this like, OK, up, up, up, up, up, you know. Just seems like it seems like yeah, whatever. Musky bait inflation, you can't get away from it.
Jay:
No kidding.
Steven:
But it would be nice to see stuff kind of. I would like to see prices stagnate or drop. We shall see anyway, into into these new things here. Rough dog. You got the little dog. I'll just. You've been selling those for eons. I mean, what what's the deal with the? With the the line up there that he's got on the spinner?
Speaker 1
Hmm.
Jay:
Rough, rough tackle? Yeah, they're out of Minnesota. They make spinner based primarily and they got 4 new models, ones a buzz bait, top water deal.
Steven:
Thanks.
Jay:
Pretty straightforward, but the little dog is a smaller frame heavy like 062 wire, single Colorado. All the stuff I'm going to be mentioning. I I got on the water this week and filmed everything, so we've got some good underwater footage of how this stuff works and felt pretty cool though. All the spinner baits look great. The little dog, a lot of vibration. You got a bent dog, have you? Did you take a look at that? That second blade down from the rear blade. Is this goofy like bent blade? Anyway, very strange vibration to it and noise. Kind of a gurgling noise and.
Steven:
Huh. The. Well, for for those of you that can't see it. They've actually got OK. They got 1 Willow on the top and that what size would that bent blade be, Jay?
Jay:
I don't know what kind of blade it is, it's.
Speaker 4
I said.
Jay:
Like a hunk of metal. But it's.
Steven:
No.
Jay:
Yeah, it's small.
Steven:
Beth. Beth, OK. Remember, but OK, so somebody stepped on a bait and. The boat went. That's cool. Yeah, run. Yeah, Ron, now that's interesting. I mean, you've got obviously they've either. Manufacture. They're OK. I mean, get get a different vibration there. If they've seen it all, they haven't seen this, you know.
Jay:
I heard it. Yeah, I haven't heard it. Yeah. The triple dog is a three Wheeler bladed deal and you know. Upon looking at it, you might think that all the blades just spin, but actually. Two of the two of the three blades are actually interfering with each other and.
Steven:
Clanking like the two lower blades.
Jay:
Very metallic clank. I slowed it down a little bit on on the playback on one of them and it's got kind. Of. That it's like when you slow down the playback on a flat tail lure, you know, like by Smitty or Bomb squad. Something like that. And you hear that thing? The blade come up and.
Steven:
Hit the rear plate, yeah.
Jay:
Yep, it's got that type of noise to. It very cool.
Steven:
Verizon in the Burberry.
Jay:
It's got a banner on Bruce and that's real noisy. Real easy to keep. On top of the water.
Steven:
There you go, get your butts cleaned up.
Jay:
If Tom can run it and then anyone can, yeah.
Steven:
Yeah, that's the thing, bus batcher.
Speaker 4
Or.
Steven:
One of those deals actually working with Don at Figure 8 on one will should have after the first of the year and. It's funny. It's like it's. You would think that a buzz bait and A and a tail prop. Would be interchangeable, but I mean when you're getting into like the nastiest nasty stuff. And you need a top water presentation. Buzz Bats are pretty good. I mean, they kind of slink through anything where, you know, the downward trebles off your your top water just going to hang up, you know, so I think the only bad thing and a bad thing, but just if you're ever looking to Bust Bay for Muskies. So one thing you got to look at, though, is it does take quite a bit of speed. You know you're not going to be able to slow roll them per say. There's not a lot of lift there, but that's interesting. Goodness gracious scanning and cranky nitrous those they've been out for a minute. Or is that?
Jay:
That's a new, larger size. It's an 8 inch model. Yeah, that absolutely insane. I love the wobble of that shallow model. Yeah. The thing runs like 10 inches down without a weight added. It's got a weight system where you can screw in just like a tighten or a crack in or a phantom, you know? But.
Steven:
Nice. Yeah. Really.
Jay:
Without any weight. That is a super shallow presentation. Great troll. That slow speeds. I mean you can slow that thing down to. You know 2.22 miles an hour and it's still just rocking and rolling. It's check it out on the yeah. Underwater. So that's Steve. It's it's like a violent wobble.
Speaker 1
Yes.
Speaker 4
Violence. Mm-hmm.
Steven:
Well, I've always liked the cranky Nitro stuff and and they make H2 always makes quality baits. Yeah. And they've got, yeah, the. So, you know, you get the weight system. Where it's the. Pre threaded, it's not like a tighten per say, it won't take the same. Screw bit take like. A A phantom weight? Correct? Because it it should be.
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
Steven:
Ohh goodness, he's using his insert screw in things there. Are they salt? They those are hollow plastic or they solid. That's what I thought. Tough.
Jay:
They are solid, tough as nails.
Steven:
Mean all the H2? I've never had an H2O. They have a problem. Fished them a lot and they're they're they're tough. Tooth tooth stuff. Anyway, what else you got here, ivans? What's up with that, Jay? You you've laid eyes on these. I have not do elaborate.
Jay:
Yeah. Put that switchblade 11 inch. You put that on YouTube this morning. So I think I did. Anyway, they've got 3 sizes like a nine and a half and 11 and a 13 inch large frame trolling date metal up. It's got this. Completely new PIN system where it's spring loaded. You push down on it and you can slide it from shallow to mid to deep just like that. Release the tension and it snaps. It holds in place.
Steven:
Mm-hmm.
Jay:
So what it's doing is the the, the shallower the the the more the towards the front of the bait that you have the the line. The greater the wander action when it's rolling and less wander as you back it off. And of course it will run slightly deeper too. So they're like some type of Redwood. Internal large rattle knocker type like A2 chamber thing. Inside there it's got a really low frequency, not like a high BD's hitting plastic. It's a real low, something that'll you know, Doctor Bob would get into that, you know, low versus high, high frequency you know. Sound emission. So and they roll real nice. Each one's a little bit different, so I'm just starting to get those videos out so. People would seem in the water.
Steven:
Cool. Yeah, well, cool. I can't believe we got stuff coming in this late. And what is there? There's a 911 and a 13/9 inch with a dive curve three to 10.
Speaker
Yeah.
Steven:
And three, and then these will. Hit 30 feet plus. That's wonder how much line that is. That's that's a deep run there. So anyway, boys, we're going to, we're going to knock out some Q&A this evening. We've been running along the last few weeks and we've got behind on few and.
Jay:
Thanks. We have that real special we got going on Tuesday.
Steven:
Oh yeah. What's going on with that?
Jay:
Yeah, we do have a real special going on real quick here. Don't want to bore you with details at the Muskie shop which I deal with every day and Steve's. Like, yeah, I know. But $75.00 gift card with any dial 400 size HD model, those are on special probably for the next. Four or five.
Steven:
Days. There you go. Buy a real get a gift card.
Jay:
Pre Black Friday savings.
Steven:
Pre Black Friday, do you have any? Well, I can't. We can't give that away at first. What's going to happen here in a few weeks? It's always like, you know, you'll get the odd message. Are you guys doing for Black Friday but?
Jay:
We'll have specials and sales. Yeah, for sure.
Steven:
Right. Well, they people want people want to know the deets, Jay, they, they, they they know they're specials in sales. They're like, what are you guys doing? I can't tell you that. But now that looks real. That's a good, good, solid real at a fair price. Jay. It's like a meal at camp. It's like a meal at camp.
Speaker 4
It'll it'll be good.
Steven:
These. We'll bring it home. It's it's. A fair price. All right, Tommy. What's up, guys? Got a question, I think if. Listeners might relate to wondering what your thoughts are about weed kill trend that seems to be plaguing lots of good fisheries lately. Obviously, fishermen hate it, but the government overlords don't seem to care. My main question is, what do you think Muskies do when their weedy Hangouts are destroyed? Or what strategy should we apply as anglers? Also, the earth is flat. Water doesn't stick to spinning balls, just. Saying, well, I will, I will. Gravity is a factor, Tommy. So I would say we have a flat Earther on the podcast. I love it. If you would like to come on. And Tommy, I invite you. Please. We will have a flat. Worth debate with you and doctor Bob next week. I hope he's kidding. I'm not. If you believe the earth is flat. I'm not mocking you. But it's very funny. Didn't expect that one. It got me. Got me right. See, that's the kind of stuff I look at. Jay and it makes me laugh. Anyway, so weed kills and and and and a lot of it for me is when you're looking at, you know, you're looking at homeowners associations or or or or local or, you know, not local government like fisheries, right, you know, DNR or whatever, whoever is in control the water or the.
Speaker 1
Right.
Jay:
Right.
Steven:
Governmental agency according to the year. You know, they take it upon themselves to go, hey, let's just mow the grass down, OK. The mowing of the grass, there are boats. And if you guys have never seen it, they're literally like a comp chopper boats. I'm sure they have a a, a much more appropriate name, but they come through and they will literally just chop up vegetation. It's like a weed eater boat.
Jay:
Yeah.
Steven:
Just destroys it, I'm positive. There's no doubt in my mind that that that plenty of fish. End with a pretty grizzly fate from those things, right? Whether it be bait fish I don't know about Muskies, but I'm sure it's happened. You know, I cutting it up. That's one thing that what scares me is when they use, you know, aquatic herbicides like they chemically kill the weeds, you know. Tommy might think the Earth is flat, but I he may he may agree with me on some capacity. The less chemicals we introduce into a body of water, the better. Right. And so I've always been kind of off like put off big time where I'm going, you know, some some biologist says ohh that you know the chemicals we're going to introduce, they won't hurt fish. Well Dan are you positive? It always seems ever notice Jay in life, at least in modern society, if this is good for you, it it's fine. Trust us, right?
Jay:
Right.
Steven:
Trust us, it won't do anything bad. And then you go, oh, well, guess what? It will or it did. So when we weeds. Are killed off. And I've always found it to be silly. You know, a lot of it. You know, I can't recall the first time I really saw somebody getting all hyped about it. Maybe you can't say like. When people got really serious about like invasive species of vegetation. Right. Like we got a boat ramp and in the North Woods, you're liable to run into one of these people. What lake have you been on? Right. And they're checking your trailer, you know. Did you wash your boat? All this stuff because you don't want to introduce, let's say, you know, you bring meal foil or or whatever.
Jay:
Yep. Yeah. You're Asian mills. Oil was common prop, right?
Steven:
Trying to not spread that, but when did that really? I mean, when, when? When's? The first time you're aware of that taking place? Because it seems maybe I'm just. I don't have a point of reference, but. You know, I I it.
Jay:
Seems like 15 years ago all of a sudden it was a thing, you know, and they started having stations around larger. We're not even larger, just random boat launches that were kind of.
Speaker 1
Listening.
Jay:
Totally used or moderately used, I guess. Not heavily used around here, but yeah, we're like you said, they check in and they they do a short interview, you know, I mean we we've had that. We've been stopped before, you know, just like worried then and you check your boat and all that you know so.
Steven:
Nothing there. But I've seen. I've seen people get start seeing, but I have a friend that got stopped head head weeds on his trailer. Got pulled over.
Jay:
MHM.
Steven:
You know, so it could happen, but obviously you want to stop the spread of invasive species if you can, but I've always found it weird on body where the weeds are not invasive and they go chopping them up, right. Personally, I think HOA's homeowners associations or lake associations tend to be the culprit of that. Because you know little Billy can't swim by the dock.
Jay:
Right. Yeah, it seems like it, right. I mean we get that around here a lot. You know, it's just like you know it's not somehow they get approved by somebody. I would assume that the DNR that you know lets them dump these pellets and go like to kill all. The weeds. You know, they get a bunch of people together and next thing you know, the entire shoreline is wiped out because you know they want to. Slightly clear water or they want to swim. They want to say any beach or something like that. Just. I I don't agree with that. You know it disturbs a lot of people around here.
Steven:
Yeah.
Jay:
And when people are doing that, you know, get permission, quote UN quote to do.
Steven:
That yeah, I don't know. I mean, leave it alone. I mean, obviously if it's naturally there, it shouldn't be approved. But what do I know? I'm. I don't work for the I'm not a biologist and I don't work for the DNR, but I've always been kind of grossed out by it. I mean, when they, when they come through his, you know, his. What? What does this change? You know, get off the soapbox here and. Was it change? It let's take it to the core of the matter. What it changes is we no longer have the cover that we once had.
Speaker 4
However.
Steven:
If we're following the rules of structure fishing right and and me and Jay, I'll talk about something here in a second. Once it's once we're done with this, remind me, Jay, about what we're doing after the the 1st of. The year here, but. When it comes to structure, fishing cover is an addition right, so structurally muskies will use productive areas, cover as a secondary consideration. So just because there's weeds doesn't mean there's muskies there you're going to find productive weeds are present. And a added benefit. To positive structure. So you want that in conjunction with one another. So just because of weed exists doesn't mean there'll be a fish on it, but positive structure, the right structure for predation. Right. The weeds are an added benefit from a cover standpoint. Now what will happen is the structure. That these weeds. So let's say for example. Let's say you got. Everybody can imagine a round lake, a simple round lake, right? Well, you got a weed bit on either end. Well, one of the weed beds really doesn't have any interesting structural bathymetry topography where the other one, you know it's drawn up, there's kind of a point thing. There might be a channel or whatever there is, right. There's interesting things happen on that and that is going to the Muskies will gravitate there. If all things are the same, if you will. But if the conditions wind all this stuff right, given their druthers, take everything. They're going to gravitate towards the structurally productive section, opposed to just the presence of wheat, so cover such as weeds such as some timber. Whatever you want to look at, Lily pads, whatever vegetation, however. Is a added benefit to good structure right? So it it's it's it's like that I think therefore I am right. You know the chicken or the egg? Like uh, you want you want positive structure, you want the appropriate structure, complex structure as complex as a body of water that your fishing will give it to you and adjacent to deep water. It sort of checks all the boxes and all the rules, but that would be my take. There is so, so let's say all the weeds are going to. Have a body of water.
Speaker 4
Right.
Steven:
You just wake up on Thursday morning. And they're gone. OK, well, what does one do? What do you do? OK, so once.
Jay:
They and you've had that problem. You had that problem when you got.
Steven:
That from Canada, I've seen it how I came came back to nothing and that was that was that was it's kind of what I call like a summer burnout where it got so hot and everything but it. From it, it didn't change much for me because I was confident in structure fishing. That's what I'm trying to trying to lead everybody by the nose here, which is OK. Just because the weeds are gone doesn't mean that fish won't still use areas that were previous productive. However, they'll use them in a different manner. That's where I'm getting right. So. So a muskie, let's say. Typically people are a lot of times muskie. Anglers are setting their boats in eight feet of water, 10 feet of one, and they're throwing up shallow right. That's the comfort zone. They throw up to the shallow weeds. They bring out their bucktail or whatever the heck it is and Yaki to smack it. Well. Structure is not just that zone, it is the leading out zone. It is from from. We're looking from the the bottom of the main basin to that edge. What's interesting. If there's no shoreline cover to hold bait fish, it's not to hold the musket, it's to hold the bait fish. What are the bait fish gonna do? Well, generally, they will actually hold a little bit deeper and hold tighter to bottom. Under most most conditions, right, weeds kind of facilitate a place to hide. As we know, a place for Muskies to ambush. But for bait fish they can get in there, they can be a little bit higher in the water. Cool, right? Because they're hiding in the weeds and they're maybe absorbing some of the sun's thermal energy off the surface, but they're able to hide up high. And that will shift. Musky activity bait fish activity when all the weeds are gone. It's just like fishing.
Jay:
There.
Steven:
Right. It's pure structure fish. So what are ambush places looking like? What are fish going to do? Because uh, let's say a walleye 10 inch walleye. You know? Yeah. They'll hide in the weeds because it grants them cover. But say the weeds are now not present on a body. What, like the scenario? That walleye is going to tend to hug to the body. As a standpoint of safety, so it's not exposed. So our focus when vegetation shoreline, vegetation is gone needs to be on fishing deeper and contouring the structure that's present right now with let's say this body of water or whatever or hypothetical body of water has for instance some rock as well. Well Rock provides not only. Ever. You know, in in its own right. But it's kind of a kind of as a permit. Fixture, right? So you'll see fish change their predation habits to a deeper because another thing that comes with the lack of weeds softened clarity, right. So water clarity increases, which means light penetration increases. So the whole food chain is going to shift to a tighter to the bottom scenario until low light presents itself.
Speaker 1
MMM MMM.
Steven:
Right. And that's typically what you'll see when a body of water happens. So what do you have to do is anger to be successful, you need to augment your game plan. So let's say, and I'm not saying, you know, I made the the kind of the hypothetical, what they do it on Thursday and you're fishing that weekend. Forget that mess. You know what I'm saying? It's not nothing going to happen. But let's say things.
Speaker
Right.
Steven:
Calm down. There's there's a month or two is elapsed and this once weedy lake is now weedless. Fish are gonna gravitate and and change. They're going to change slowly, but they're going to augment their patterns to something that works. You know, it's not like. The weeds disappear and fish staged in a similar manner, so everything's going to become more bottom oriented. They're going to become, it's going to be incumbent on you to do more contouring. Right. So where in one scenario where you could say, throw a hellhound over the weed tops, and that Hellhound never has to get deeper than two feet. And that's kind of that's happy place. Well, you might need to go with like, a a hot tails nugget or or a hot tails fishtail. A heavier glider to be able to contour the the the structure. Yeah. Right. And then we need to breakdown. How much further out and how much further down that Muskies obviously the bait fish are going to dictate this, that muskies. Are going to stage. So a body of water that might previously say like a hellhound, or a bucktail or top waters was once productive on because of shoreline vegetation. I'm not going to try to find entirely new areas, I'm going to find new approaches and more contouring baits and deeper approaches to fish that similar. I don't say similar areas, but this same zone. Right. But further further off the edge in a deeper fashion. Right, because the structure has not changed unless they brought a dredge in and changed the the the, the, the, the topography of the area. Nothing's changed. It's just how fish are going to use it because the shoreline vegetation affords them the opportunity to be super shallow. And still have cover to hide from predation. So like I said, you're going to have to think deeper. You're going to have to think in a contouring fashion because you will find, you know, I said, for example, that 8 inch wall, he'll slide up in the weeds and hang out. Well, that 8 inch wall, he might be up in 5 feet of water. He's probably on the bottom. Right. And then you'll find Muskies waiting, say off the next break, and they're ambushing from below and up, opposed to coming out of the weeds and grabbing different, different predatory strategy.
Speaker
Friend.
Steven:
Right. So they'll augment that with her instead of waiting for something to go past their lateral line past their visual spectrum with their heads kind of barely out of the weeds, they're going to augment their thing with their laying belly on the mud and wait for something to go over their head. Just like you know, once the once the vegetation's gone at the end of the and things of that nature. That would be the change yet, but what I was gonna say, I talked to Jay about it. We've been doing the show for for eons, which is great. Love it, love doing it every week. It's just, you know, we get hooked out of it. We've had a bunch of messages, a lot of different people.
Speaker 1
MHM.
Steven:
Over the. Last all 6-7 months. Hey, you know what's this? What's that? And you go well, we talked well, we talked about that. I don't say it to people, but me and jail. Well, we've covered that well. We realized we look back when when we covered that three years ago, right. What we're gonna do, guys, there's a lot of guys and it and I guess you like. I've lost sight of I guess Jay as well.
Jay:
Steven:
You know, you. You go. Wow, we we really hit that, we hit that. But it's been years. So what we're going to do after the first of the year is kind of, I guess kind of do a reset if you will. And cover some more of the not basics, not the bear. Well, hell, we'll probably cover some of the bear buns, but go back where? Where? You know what? Yeah, it's time for a fresh Figure 8 master class. It's time for a fresh big rubber, you know and and kind of come at her fresh. Just so you guys, we can get a lot of newer people listening, you know. That that got a lot of older guys still listening. Guys have been with us the whole time, but so if you've been listening for a while, we're just going to freshen up some of the topics and kind of hit the reset button. So we're covering her all you know, because we find ourselves or I found myself even toned. Well, you know what I mean, you know, say that or. You know, referencing things that we've already covered and I I don't want to leave people behind in the learning curve, you know what I'm saying, Jay? Does that make?
Jay:
Sense to you? It does. I mean, you don't want to feel. I don't want to feel like I'm always constantly repeating myself, you know? And that's. And sometimes I get that because it's just like, oh, man, I I've told this story before. You know, one of my. Few points of reference I might have. Move on on something that you know tactically you're talking about or whatever. You know, my own experiences with stuff. So yeah, I mean, I agree, you know, it's like some of the references we have are probably going over people's heads that only been listening for a couple months, you know.
Steven:
Yeah, you're telling me you didn't live in them four years ago on that? Yeah.
Jay:
Well, you remember who that is? You know, we got a lot of characters involved, you know? Yeah, it's all in good fun. And, you know, it's just like Steve and I do this. It's a labor.
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah.
Jay:
Of love and I mean absolutely.
Steven:
You know, you know getting we're getting 100 and guys always happy with with as many people.
Jay:
I I agree. I mean it it.
Steven:
But when you check your inbox, people were just a lot, you know, a lot of new guys. So we're not changing anything. Don't get me wrong, we're not changing what we're doing. But don't be shocked if we. Kind of go. OK, let's talk about the basics of crank. But you know, I'm saying so. If you've heard it before, it'll be. And the other thing is this. I've thought about it too, is like. Revisiting all the topics instead of just kind of steam tracking it because. A lot of it. My God, I look back at what we've done over all these years. A lot of it's changed as far as what Bates are available and stuff like that, which is cool. Nothing. There's nothing. There's nothing crazy happened. I'm just going. Hey, be for a warning. When I go, it's a gussied up structure, master class or a gusty up, you know, big rubber or glide base or whatever it is.
Jay:
It was.
Steven:
Kind of going back and and and starting at square one on those to help a lot of people get get up to speed here and also too like.
Jay:
There's there gonna be a? Yeah, it's not. Gonna be a. Repeat, you know now a fresh perspective stuff. So yeah, absolutely.
Steven:
Respect, yeah, yeah. Well, cause I feel bad. I feel like sometimes me and Jay always do our best to not retread this same stuff. And I'm realizing, OK, we're leaving some people in the dark or they feel like it's a inside. What's the insider information? There never is. We'll give it to you all. And Speaking of. Insider information, OK. Somebody is sitting right now doing the final edits on.
Speaker
Oh.
Steven:
Next level muskie fishing volume 2. So that's that's the that's the first little. Cat out the bag. Ouch. So Speaking of Speaking of covering stuff. Anyway, we'll there'll be more on that one later. All right, Keith. What would you guys do with the temps still warm in the mid Midwest? What is the mid Midwest Jake? Like the, it's like the wild, Wild West. West Indiana. Illinois. Yeah. There you go. OK, that would be the mid Midwest. I know. It's funny. OK, so ask him. What? What do we do with the temp? Still warm there. You know, if you kind of split the difference from Tennessee, Kentucky to wear Jays.
Speaker
Maybe you're referring to?
Steven:
I'm I'm not thinking your water temps are colder than the north Woods by any means, I mean. You know what, what do you think, Jay? What do you think? The magic? Because they're saying it's still warmer than usual. I'm. I'm extrapolating from that. What's like? What's sucker temp for you when you're just knee jerk? What? What's the water temp? All the everybody's walking. In time to soak the sucker.
Jay:
Yeah, 45 and below it. Clearly, I mean, you know, once you start talking about when those temps start sliding, yeah, under 60°. Sure, suckers could be very effective and have them out. But yeah, don't want to name names. But some people this week it's just like they had to have suckers.
Speaker 4
Jay:
Where they were going. Yeah, it was all their state or in state because that's the ticket. That's what the big ones were eating. And fish are just a little sidetrack here. I mean, had some people come in this week and I'm not just trying to disparage anybody, but it's just like they were asking about what was working, you know?
Steven:
Might depend on monitor.
Jay:
And it's like I know if we wouldn't have talked in detail about what what kind of like they were going to a B, the current conditions, right? OK. Water temps are like 43° or whatever they were that day. It's just like don't be buzzing surface spades hot, you know, and flinging those over, you know, it's just like.
Speaker 4
Right, right you gotta.
Jay:
That time has passed. You gotta be looking at allow. These fish are deep. So, you know, try to convince them to slow down and and use some big plastics and stuff like that and have a sucker out. So I mean that's that's the program everywhere right now that I've.
Steven:
Well, and that could. Heard. Yeah. For that area and and you know if if Keith if your water temps are higher than usual you know I mean here's the thing and it's when you get odd years.
Speaker 1
So.
Steven:
And it's a it's a different ball game right now. I, you know, I'm. I'm not trying to predict anything, but I don't think we're going to have a harsh win.
Jay:
Here.
Steven:
Sure as heck doesn't feel like it, yet we'll see, but you cannot fish whatever the the, whatever the date on the calendar says, it's like, OK, I'm looking at my watch. It is November 10th. That means nothing. Right. Means nothing, water, temp, weather conditions that's going to that's going to Trump everything in my book, you know. Yes, the length of daylight photo period will play, you know. But when we're looking at. When we're looking at the the the core of the matter, how are bait fish stage which is going to tell you where actively feeding muskies are? Don't pay attention to what what the date says on your phone or your watch or the calendar. Be paying attention to what the day-to-day conditions are telling you. You know, because you you get these funky little warm ups and you go whoa, that's different. You know that's a different ball game or or or like I was saying earlier, you know, warmer than usual water temps. So just pay attention to that and kind of pattern from there. Max, Max, I'm a 13 year old fisherman. I've just started musky fishing. What lures would you recommend for shore fishing? Ohh for sure fishing rivers. OK, so young Max Jay. He's a young, musky padawan. Wanting river fishing lures, well, one thing I'll Jay loves fishing rivers. I grew up fishing about what? Jay? Take it in a second. But one thing I'm going to tell you when I'm looking at baits for fishing from a river, right? He doesn't sound like he's rocking around in a boat. We want to be as snag free as possible unless you like swimming for. Right. So that's one thing I'm going to look at where what baits are not going to get hung up, Jay, what are kind of your bank fishing, shore fishing rivers for for this young muskie angler. What's kind of the starter pack or what do you think?
Jay:
Clearly spinner baits. Spinner baits are so effective in a variety of different conditions year round. You do a lot with them. They're very snag free they they it's one of the few sinking baits that I would consider snag free, you know, single hook quality is very weedless and all that so and you could run them real slow and you know keep that stuff in the strike zone and they they'll they'll tick and bang cover really nicely. Without didn't hung up too often. So, and they're not. They're not an arm and a leg price wise too. So if you do lose 1, it's like, you know, might be half the price or less of, you know, some, you know, beautiful wood bait, you know, that are right can get quite expensive. You know another thing would be well, obviously top waters, you know, conditions permitting, of course, but that wouldn't be a primary word for me anytime really it would be more. Shell diving crank gates that have you know floating qualities, you know.
Steven:
Pretty good buoyancy, yeah.
Jay:
Yeah, crane, slammers. Stuff like that. Shell Raiders, stuff like that will get the job done.
Steven:
And and Max. What? I'll tell you, one of the keys to fishing rivers depend. I mean, you could be on a Deep River, but when it's most rivers, they're not. Hollace housley deep. You know, if you're short fishing. Get a feel. For crankbaits, whether it be deep or shallow. Is that a fish or is it a rock? Is that a fish or as it would once you have a tactile feel, you can feel the difference in your hands. You know what the bait is doing? You can get a bait through just about anything, right? You're not worried about getting snagged because you'll learn. OK, there's a rock over there. I can glance the top of this rock. Lit my bait.
Speaker 1
Hmm.
Steven:
Load up, come down the backside of it and and make contact with cover. Make contact with structure with little to No Fear of getting snagged up and losing the. Right. So practice that and get a feel for things and go, OK, that is going to be problematic if I'm casting into the different areas or different current rates and things of that nature. But once you know what that bait is doing and you can visualize what's happening with that bait, you're going to get hung up way less. Way left.
Jay:
Steve, that's you absolutely hit the nail on the head with with young, young anglers, right, involves someone or anybody at any age that might be just kind. Of starting out.
Steven:
Yeah, new anglers have it. Yeah.
Jay:
With throwing these big bass is the the feel of the bait is practice. Pay close attention to what's that? What that.
Steven:
Right.
Jay:
Is doing and. You know you'll start to differentiate the differences. Between ticking weeds, banging rocks or wood, you know, and or a strike, you know, or a perch hit the the trailer on the way in, you'll be able to pick these things, you know? Yeah.
Steven:
Feel that if. Know and yeah, he can feel the difference. I mean, if you and if you don't believe me practice you can where you know just the slightest change in the way that baits ring which is something again overarching not just for Max but for about anybody which is you know and everybody gets like.
Speaker
MHM. George.
Steven:
They buy a new bait and they they just gotta throw it, right? After throw? Sure. Great. But don't overload yourself when you're new to musky fishing. Don't overload yourself. Get you know you got, you know, Slammer. You got depth rater, you got your tight and you got your crack. You have a core of baits, whether it be rivers, lakes, whatever. A core of baits that are your your main focal point. For your presentations that you know inside and out you. Know what they feel like. Right. Because the the, the, the, the word feel you can't teach. Feel right? I can't. I can't explain it to you the best I can. But until you hit a rock. And. You go. That's rock. That's weed. That's timber. That's soft bottle, that's sand. Right. And and guys have been doing this for a while, like, oh, I can tell. I can definitely tell the difference between weed and rock. Well, when you begin, you couldn't. Right. But you know when you hit muck bottom without seeing the bait, come with mud on it. You go. OK, that's sand or that's muck that when you can feel the different bottom composition, it's doable. Yep. Right. It is high you have to be highly observant. You have to be aware of what's happening, you know, had a guy the other day asked me. He he he was fishing with me. We're on a trip and. We're throwing crank baits and and one thing I do obsessively when I'm throwing crankbaits I palm the reel, but I actually have a finger on. The. Line so I'm I'm a left-handed angler but my my finger is actually slightly. On the line up underneath it. Yeah. Yeah. And when I do that, I'm going. I can feel that coming through my, my hand, my finger. I there's times where I will have a. Now be careful. Don't get freaking sliced and diced by lying here. If something goes ripping on you. But you know I'm looking for the most. Touch tactile sensitivity I can get because it allows me to know what's happening right to the point now where I go. I did, and they're not trying to my normal it my, you know, before, before the thing sinking like a stand said my bait doesn't feel right. Right bait doesn't feel right. And I bring in a shallow invader, and when it's leaking it, it hadn't sunk yet. It was just the difference in two casts. Right. And the seems undone. I went OK, well, I'm. I'm dialed in on that thing. You know, it wasn't full of water, just a little. It just felt you can, when you're dialed in, let's say, whether it be a shell invader, Shelly, Raider, tighten. Let it when you're dialed in on these things, you know what they're going to do. And you know what they're always going to do when something changes, you know what it is? And and once you get a feel for that different, the different cover structure, everything that we're going to be in. Countering you, you can cope with it far better, and I think for river anglers it's imperative to make it not suck, right? Because if you fish like Max saying he's fish in. A river from bank. If you just throw a bait out there, turn the handle haphazard, you're going to have a bad time. You're going to get stuck. It's going to be a nightmare and and and just overarching what everybody does, Jay. Everybody throws the bait out there and just turns the handle. Once you start really digging in and look at the tactile feel of this stuff, it's going to put more fish in your net, Sam. The lake got fish has tons of rocks, but I never seem to contact Muskies on them. I've spent plenty of time majors, minor sunrise, sunset, good weather, bad weather. I can never seem to pull Muskies off of these rocks. Am I doing things wrong? Are they not using the rocks found near the shoreline? OK. So, he says, found near the shoreline. The first question I have in my mind is are there rocks that are deeper? That's question, right. I mean, if you if you're like and he, it sounds like he's pretty, pretty strong about. I've done it all during the good times, the bad times, everything in between. I've seen it before and I I can think in my head I'm going well. I will bomb body water is on today. There are places that look awesome that I've never cut a fish out of. Actually, Jody was talking to me. She went out yesterday trolling by herself on her rig and. We're talking about this winter. Never seen a fish there, ever it look on paper, it checks all the boxes. Check. OK. I've done the same thing. You know what? What? What? What you've done, Sam. Is kind of like where where people are checking out new areas. I've always said this, you know, you've got to check it under everything you the good, bad, the ugly majors, minor sunrise, sunset. Don't. Don't ride a place off until you've done that. You may have found a place that looks awesome or or an area or. Or what. What? What have you? That just is not going to produce now. I would look at it from a structural standpoint. Right. Are these just random rocks that are on a big flat with really nothing else happening, no differentiation of of brake lines or something like that? We're just kind of wide open and because determining what is going to be productive and what's going to be productive for a musky is often about like that juxtaposition, right where. You know, be it complexity and complexity of an area or a section of a lake is always, you know, a game of comparison. But Muskies don't have any point of comparison. They've only a Muskie spends its life in one body of water. Right. So good stuff is good, bad stuff is bad. You can look at it structurally. The only thing I would say is this is is really look at your mapping right hopefully got a map of the lake. If not, you know do a self scan or whatever it. And go. OK. Is there maybe a rocky outcropping, or is there a a more dense area of rock where it comes out deeper in the water than the other rock rocks or any? Don't count it out until you've maybe looked at the deeper aspects of it away from the shoreline and see if there's something structurally right. Maybe a hard break. A divot in the in the. Photography. Something that says, OK, this should be productive because possibly instead of the whole area is good, there might just be one small section that's actually productive. You know, there's nothing like that and you've done your due diligence. Forget about it. And sometimes you have to do it. I mean, there's places on my body. Where do we go? Yep. If I was looking for a musket, looked there and after.
Speaker 4
Right.
Steven:
As long as I've been doing it, still hasn't. It still haven't hit pay dirt there, Jay. You just now drive by, you know, go. Nope. Got better things to hit. Yeah. And and it happens. I mean, it's it's I I've seen it a million times, especially Canada. Another scope and scouting new stuff all the time. Right.
Jay:
Sofa box.
Steven:
Looking at similarities, looking at the juxtaposition to deep water, you know everything that kind of ticks the boxes for. What should work? And you'll find something. You go, man. This looks killer. It should do that trick.
Speaker
Right.
Steven:
Nope. You know, then you, then you bop over 30 yards and there's a hump, you know, and you start getting you go. Really. You guys aren't going to use that and it's not that the Muskies won't use this to bait fish thing, but go, come on. Come on. Do what you're supposed to do, and they'll they'll do whatever they want to do off often. Most days. So Eric, I hope I don't sound dumb, but you tell me how to work a trip will be when casting, I feel like. I feel like I don't know. How to work this? OK, triple D If you don't know a triple D that is from drifter tackle ERC. And what is that 8 inches with the 8 inches and then plus the lip or something like that or. Is it 8?
Jay:
Yeah, right around there.
Steven:
Over. So Triple D what's interesting about triple D, they're neutrally buoyant. Actually. Speaking of videos, we did this. OK. I forgot about that, so that is what is it called Jay. Suspending, cramping, suspending crankbaits. There's avidia on the muskie shops. Youtubes. Of this but. Maybe you don't have YouTube, maybe you can't afford YouTube YouTube's free. Everybody calm down, but so triple D suspending crankbait so it's not going to. It should not rise. It should not fall. And in the video I recall doing it where? We dial that thing in so there's tips and tricks there on how to get that thing exactly where you want it with the triple D what I'm going to do is going to RIP it down, going to RIP the rod across my body or crank it down to get it to depth, and then the pop pop it to the side. Kind of like a pseudo glide bait. So the way I approach a triple D is. When I'm getting it to depth, it's a crankbait. When I'm working it most of the way back to the boat, it's glide bait and I'm going to finish the cast with a crank bait into my Figure 8, right? So I'm popping that thing glide batish. To get a left to right or a turn out of the thing. And it's sort of popping around presenting its side, presenting its side with a slight bit of slack line. When I'm working that way, right? If you want to see it, one for one. Like I said, I think the best thing is a visual representation that, that suspending crankbait video is out there. You've also got with the suspending Booker. You got the Livingston lures. Rachel, I think that we did in that video and I think those are kind of your main suspenders, but I I love Triple D's. I I've caught scuds of fish on those things and they were really hot for a minute. Everybody's talking about and now you just don't see guys throwing them, which is a lost opportunity. You know, the thing with glide, Bates, love, Glide Bates. Glad Bates are always falling, right? You have to it it, it's it can't just hang there forever. I turn to a triple day or a double day. Then I have the shorter bill double day but. I turned to. Those baits in some really bad conditions where it's just. Like pop, pop. And I'm talking let it hang forever. You know 2-3 seconds is not that long. And then pop, pop, pop and you'll have this bait that's just like. Jerking around there and they're having a look at it. So they knowing they feel it, it's just hanging in their face because that thing's barely moving. I I can come out and hit that. Why not? Right. So if they're very negative and. Neutral. It's a heck of a bait to to throw at things that are sort of hanging out in that 610 foot range. You can pull them off a cover and structure with those baits pretty well. That's how I work at casting, you know, I know. Yes, casting. They also troll phenomenally. They're really good trolling bait. And I do like to do the same thing trolling with triple D. And so you know, typically I love my head locks all about some head locks, all about some, you know, believers and all that fun stuff and grandmas and. Jakes and blah blah blah. But when things are cruddy, triple these man. I I've been known to jerk, not jerk. Troll those things I've been known to just come over points or main breaks and just like, OK, put the boat in reverse for a second. Kind of slow your momentum and that thing just kind of stops. You know or throw your boat in the neutral and that the the the, the, the the speed of the bait stops and then at a certain point it's just kind of. Not hanging, but it's it's it's not rising. You know. And and you can really play around with those baits and and do some interesting things. What are you going? To say.
Jay:
Yeah, it's like active trolling. I call it. You know, where you have a driver and you got someone running the rods and if you got a triple D on the you know port side or something.
Speaker 4
Yeah, activation.
Jay:
That. Whip, whip and then I mean have it off the rod later, obviously RIP RIP and then kind of.
Speaker 4
Yeah.
Jay:
Back it up. That thing is actually going to possibly get you a strike versus just because, you know, put a camera down there. If if we could have the camera back that far, there are for sure countless muskies, you know, 4 feet.
Steven:
Yeah.
Jay:
Behind dates, just watching them that you net that never hit no for.
Steven:
Oh, I've seen it when I'm live imaging you point it back at the baby. Ohh, I'd hit it.
Jay:
Sure, you know.
Speaker 1
And hit.
Steven:
It hit it, but like, you know, active Tron jerks wrong. Hit it one more time.
Speaker 4
Get.
Jay:
Edit musky one more time.
Steven:
Terrence, I would really like to up my big rubber game, but I'm skeptical of some of the lures on the market. What did? What did Terence? What did they do to you? We got flat Earthers. We have people that are skeptical of big rubber. Jay. It's like listening to Infowars. It's.
Speaker
Out.
Speaker 1
Let's see.
Steven:
Conspiracies. He's skeptical of some others on the market. Does the amount of tails matter or is it about overall size? I see a lot of bats with a lot of tails and they just keep adding more. OK. You know, yeah, it started with Bulldogs. It's one tail. You got medusas. You got three tails on those bad boys. You got the quad dog. That's got 4 tails. You got 2 feet Tufts with one tail. You got 2-3 Tufts with three tails. You got Bulldogs with over the up and up, was it? Over under. And you double dogs and you got savages.
Jay:
And you got the savage gear from the 7th gear. Little side games on.
Steven:
It it is a tails arm race.
Jay:
Voice.
Steven:
Personally, you know, I don't think the amount of tales matter. What's really going to matter with your big rubber baits and rubber presentations is running depth. I'm I'm way more about what what is the appropriate running depth of that this Bay and then profile. You know. I I when it comes to rubber baits, I mean, I know like Minnesota or something like that, you might have to be hucking the biggest of the big. You know, I I'm looking here, Jay, all my rubber baits are hanging right here in the in the in the bait cave and I'm looking up and I'm just caught sight of my double tail pounder. Right. Hopefully never throw that thing again. And then, uh, Dana Teasy tough, I've got one that he made me. That's like, I think it's 2 1/2 lbs. You know it's it's it's special. Yeah, I got a couple of those. I mean, for the most part, I'm going to throw an alpha dog.
Jay:
Yeah, it's big. It's a big date. It's a chunk.
Steven:
Our standard size dog, you know the the main ask is that the amount of tails? I don't think the amount of tails matters. The amount of tails, in my opinion, influences. The rate of fall it's more surface area, it's more stuff grabbing water is more, tails, more thump. Theoretically. Can be. But it's more about surface area. I mean, you know, I. 1. I mean, it's hard to say on A1 for one, but on the other thing is this. I've been on places where we're like, you better be throwing a Medusa if you want to get to eat. Right now. Is it a size thing or profile thing or is it a tail thing? I tend to think it's the running depth and profile opposed to the the amount of tails. What do you think Jay?
Jay:
I think it's important that you know the bait you choose behaves and looks great and performs well on on the pause. Because that's what's catching the fish. You know, it's like all these mentioned really work good, but they they work good at different speeds and different type of.
Steven:
Yeah.
Jay:
Holes. You know what I mean? Yeah, so.
Steven:
Yeah, yeah, it's applicable the the covering structure, your fishing, that's why I don't think it's never one verse one. I, you know, the great Bulldogs are medusas. Well, you know.
Speaker
Yep.
Steven:
I I it surface area and and how they run in the water. All right, we'll do one more here before I have to get up again, Jay. And put another one of these greasy critters in the fritter Garrett love. The podcast love everything you guys do. Thank you so much. Thank you, Garrett. Thank you. I had a heartbreak boat said this weekend. The biggest muskie I've ever seen bent the back hook on my hellhound just before my boat. Partner kidney. Got me thinking, should I increase the hooks on this bait or how else could I prevent this from happening again OK. I'll tell you. When we're both side with a big fish, especially Garrett, since the biggest fish is different. Right. It doesn't matter. I mean, if if maybe it's maybe it was 59 3/4 or maybe it was 39, right? Big big as relative and we all get excited when we have see a big fish, right? Especially got him hooked. You got to be smart about how much pressure you're applying. A bent hook to me. Is we're over exerting pressure, right? So now are there faulty hooks? Yes. Are can hooks be damaged? Yes. How often does it happen? Not often. Right. So when we have a hook when it's on a Hellhound, hellhound, are those they might. I don't think they're eagle claws, but they look like eagle claws to me. Jay, is that the right hook on a Hellhound?
Jay:
Don't know what they're using, but I'm pretty sure they're not 77 fours. I'll tell you that much. You're not going to straighten one of those out. And that's the thing that brings the we were Tom and I at work were just just this last week.
Steven:
It's like a it's it's nine, you know. No, but it's. Now.
Jay:
We. Were looking at a page, it looked like it had eagle claws on it, right? I'm not going to mention what it is, but it was a very soft hook and we noticed some of them.
Steven:
Or.
Jay:
We're coming in bed, huh? Two of us. And it's like, OK, poker placement is critical, but more often than not, people aren't using the Dragon. I'm not saying he wasn't. Didn't have his drag set, right? But you know.
Steven:
Well. No, it's it's it's it's not drag, it's it's pressure applied before we get in. The net you know. Which is at this point if you realize, OK, if you look at a hook. Right. The end of the point the point is not where the stress is when we're fighting a fish, the hook is penetrated and we're at the bend, right? You can bend a hook pretty freaking easily by the point, right? If you were to pull on it like, but you try bending it in the curve and bend it up. Right. So where the load is on the hook is in the curve at that point, right? I've seen it happen a million times. I've had bats go flying over my head here. I'm going to net the fish. And it's like a few. Working, you know, just a bungee cord explodes in your face and the bats flying at me and throwing my arms up or ducking right. People get excited. And that last pull, that last little bit. And they go, they try to muscle man, right. And if you get a fish turning. And we got we got different opposing forces. It can be bad at that point. You've got to be ready. You want to obviously have pressure on the fish, but don't go haywire with the last pool. Right. Don't go crazy on it because that fish has plenty of power, especially on a short leash like that. And and the closer we are to the rod tip, the greater the force is exerted on everything. You're not going to bend a hook. I've heard it. You bend hooks on rocks and trees and all this stuff, right? When you have the springiness of your rod and you have the drag of your reel as a buffer during the cast, let's say 30 feet off the boat, 20 feet off the boat, there's a lot of shock absorption, shock absorption taking place right before. Anything in your signal chain, your your leader, your swivels, your split rings. There, there it's it's shock absorption. They're not going to go. When you get in that and it's usually like right coming in the rod tip, 2-3 feet of line out, man, you gotta put pressure on you. You can't just put your whole body weight on it. And that's where I've seen the worst things happen. So now the hooks. I mean, I I never, to be honest with you, Jay, I never changed the hooks on my hell hounds right off the RIP. You can always get a bad hook. I'm always watching hooks. One thing I say about those hooks and reading out that they're eagle claws is they kind of have the outward point. You know, talking about the points instead of curving in like an owner or a mustad, they kind of are angularly out.
Jay:
Well, Shaughnessy, Ben's right.
Steven:
Yeah, and and and that's not my favorite thing, but I don't, I don't need jerk change those hooks out every time. But I've caught a lot of big fish on hell hounds and and not had that problem not saying that that I nailed with that the answer is but when I've seen Hooks bend it's the over exertion of force on a really short leash.
Speaker 1
No.
Steven:
Right. Now the other trick is this. I'll say this human things actually get broke. And then this guy didn't get the fish is not the problem. They're both here guys. Well, the hooks on my sew and so bent. And we narrowly lost the fish. Yes, it's in the net.
Jay:
Once assuming that.
Steven:
So that that's typical where things go awry, the fish gets in there, he twists around. You know things. They because you got to think when the muskies on the cast or he's away from the boat you have that buffer, right. It's in your rod tip. You're you're dragging in the net. The net is you get, you know, you got the net, maybe pinned down here holding the net. It's a little more stationary. So you can actually exert force there so.
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Steven:
Anyway, that's your fishing physics lesson on that. But sorry to hear you lost that fish. It happens. It's like it it it. Hopefully it's not the last time it happens because the more you catch, the more you're gonna lose. And and it just happens. And if you've not lost one, you will. I've I've lost plenty over my years, but I can tell.
Speaker
Steven:
Is. At a certain point, when it comes to hooks, you become. Crazy about changing them because you know you want super sharp hooks and I, you know, don't ever bend to hook back. That's also the point there it's. Let's see. Been a hook on a rock. It's a big known that have been it back because you've actually fatigued the metal. Right. So middle. Yeah, middle fatigue is a kiss of death when it comes to hooks. So.
Jay:
Yeah, that's a good point. Good point. Yeah, get a get a pack of BKK's and keep them in your tackle box for replacement. You know you're.
Speaker 4
There you go. Not gonna bend those. Alrighty. I gotta get up early, boys. Jaybird seat. Goodnight. Alrighty. Night, guys. Thank you.
Speaker 1
Well. Musky musky how was it? My skin, my skin. I should have just laugh. And you'll be out of sight. Yeah. Show you if you wanna jerk fake because I need to know. But I must confess.
Speaker
What?
Speaker 1
Did it machine one more time?